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Ian Andrew

Going Out on Your Own
« on: January 28, 2010, 07:29:48 PM »
On another thread Rob asked:

Brian brought up an interesting point earlier about guys being able to "move out on their own" and handle all of the aspects of a job - including the finances. Is this a huge hill to climb for most associates?

How about associates who were "project leads" at various courses?

I would imagine the only way to see if you could do it is to give it a shot (and have someone give you a commission to work on)?

How much tougher is that first solo commission versus the second?

I think this is actually a pretty good question that deserves its own thread.


Some thoughts from my own experience:

1.   The toughest part about going on your own is simply bringing in enough work. The ones that make the easiest transitions would be the ones with an existing client base. If the associate has been bringing in work and has their “own” clients they will make the easiest transition because they have an existing business. If calls come looking for the associate rather than the principle to take on a particular projects, then that person has enough of a reputation that they will likely be successful in finding new work because people know who they are despite the fact they work in a larger firm.

2.   You better have some ability to financially survive without income. While some businesses get going pretty quickly, there is still a delay in having the income reach you. If you have no work, you need to get work, do the work, and then collect the fees. This cycle is pretty close to 6 months on some projects – shorter on others. You need a nest egg even if you have work, because you will need to pay not only your bills at home but the new bills the company generates. Additionally you will face all those other wonderful expenses like incorporation, equipment, and liability insurance.

3.   I don’t agree with Brian about financial knowledge. Frankly common sense will get you through most things and a good accountant will steer you through the rest. Although in his defense, the more you know about finance, the better off you will be. You will spend far more time on billing and bookkeeping and other tasks than you can ever expect – running a business involves a lot of time beyond being an architect.

4.   Here’s the problem with one solo commission – if you can find it – what if they don’t pay or the project gets suddenly halted. You’re in deep trouble if you are going to rely on one client. Any good business has a base. Reliance on a single client, only one aspect of the business (ie. only new courses) or one region (Florida) can place you in a precarious position. And what if you can’t find the second?

5.   If you can’t write a descent proposal or report stay in a firm. I find I spend more time writing than drawing. It is the most valuable skill that I know have because it brings in work. The ability to differentiate yourself from a dozen others is paramount to surviving this era.

6.   You have to be very self-motivated. Running your own business is a grind. Since you have to do everything from getting work to running the business, you are always busy doing something (that often doesn’t pay). It takes me evenings and a week-end afternoon to get everything done for nine to ten months a year.

7.   You need to understand this business and the cycles and be prepared. I had essentially no work for the first four months last year, which also meant no income. Fortunately I was able to start preparing for this eventuality a couple of years ago, but I couldn’t imagine anyone starting out last year – oh wait we did – thank god he has a second job ;D.


I’ll be curious to other architect’s thoughts or others response to this.

It was certainly the most enjoyable thing I have ever done.

I also believe that not everyone is ready to run their own business and nobody has the right to ever chastise someone for staying an associate.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2010, 07:32:07 PM by Ian Andrew »

Mac Plumart

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Re: Going Out on Your Own
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2010, 07:40:07 PM »
Ian...

Totally cool thread.  It combines my two favorite topics...business and golf.

On the business side of it, you touch on a great issue.  Being an entrepeneur takes a unique skill set and type of person and it is not for everyone.  And like you say, there is nothing wrong with staying on as an employee or, even partner, in an existing firm.

The one thing that strikes me about the golf course archtiecture business is the lack of annuitization of revenue streams.  Correct me if I am wrong, but if you don't close a new deal...you don't make any money.  Is that right?  For instance, if I start a firm and design MRP GOlf Links in Maine...the club will pay me a fee.  Once I am done, I get nothing on an on-going basis...right?

If that is right, I would change that...if I were the architect. 

I would either change my compensatation arrangement with the clubs/courses to include an annual trailer based on certain criteria or I would think of alternative (and complimentary) lines of business to establish continuing sources of revenue.

But that is just me.

Great thread.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Going Out on Your Own
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2010, 08:05:17 PM »
The thing I found out over the past couple of years is that contracts are not so iron-clad as they are made out to be.  EVERYTHING depends on who has the power in the relationship, and that is seldom the golf course architect.

Two years ago we had six jobs under contract, and presumably about $7.5 million in fees.  On some of them I had scheduled monthly payments throughout the process, to take care of cash flow for associates ... that taken care of, on others there were big payments at contract milestones.

But when things started looking bad, clients either called to ask to suspend payments for a while, or just stopped paying without a call.  And then you realize what little recourse you have.  You can declare the contract void ... but you still want the job to happen.  You can sue your client for payment ... but they're probably going to declare bankruptcy, and anyway, an architect who gets the reputation of suing clients is going to have a hard time finding clients.  So you let them suspend payments and rewrite everything on their own terms, even though you know what would happen if the shoe was on the other foot.

And you're back to finding a couple of restoration jobs to keep the boys busy.


P.S. to Mac:  I do have a couple of jobs now which pay me design royalties ... which will be an awfully nice cushion when I start winding my career down.  But it doesn't even come close to covering an active payroll.


Tom_Doak

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Re: Going Out on Your Own
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2010, 08:06:29 PM »
[doubled up and deleted]
« Last Edit: January 28, 2010, 08:18:27 PM by Tom_Doak »

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Going Out on Your Own
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2010, 08:11:53 PM »
Tom...

Love the design royalties idea. 

I won't get too detailed on the internet about business ideas or money issues, but any line of business that compliments your existing skills and generates mutil-year revenue streams (or perpetual streams) could prove to be a great idea.

I am pounding the table that everyone at least consider it.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Going Out on Your Own
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2010, 08:19:17 PM »
Mac:

The down side of royalties is that it puts you in collections mode with past clients.  You'd better really like them and trust them.

Rob Rigg

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Going Out on Your Own
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2010, 08:51:25 PM »
Ian - Thanks for starting this out as a separate thread - your insight is really appreciated.

Tom - Interesting what you said on the other thread about finding your second, third, fourth opportunity to work being tougher - I can see how that happens.


Don_Mahaffey

Re: Going Out on Your Own
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2010, 08:53:22 PM »
I wonder if one way to survive these down times is to partner up with likeminded GCAs.
Like Tom has written so many times, you simply cannot do it alone. But, if you’re willing to help another independent guy out and him help you… as long as who brings in the work gets the credit...why not? Maybe I'm naive, but to me it’s all about doing great work. You have your name on great work, even if you have to share some of the $$$ with another hungry GCA, so what if he does the same with you? I don't know if there are enough guys who can keep their egos in check to make it work, but it sure seems like a way to do great work for a reasonable cost in this tough economic environment. I just don’t see any new comers getting rich in GCA any time soon so if you get a chance to build something why not use every available resource to make sure it comes out great while spending a reasonable amount of $$$.

I just read through the firms that put in a bid (RFQ?) to build a muni course in Laredo, TX. Interesting that a  lot more construction firms submitted then GCA firms . What do you think is going on when a large well known construction firm partners with a local LA to submit a bid? You’d think they’d find a small GCA to partner with, but it’s all about getting work. Maybe there is a way to combat that sort of thing if small GCA firms find a way to pool resources.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Going Out on Your Own
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2010, 09:07:20 PM »
Ian,
I started on my own....never worked for another...now I did work in the business long enough to get a pretty good network of people and developers.

And I agree with Tom as to how the contract portion etc of the business works.  Only thing I did differently was that often I would trade lots for part of the fee on different projects so now I have about 23 lots on different courses hoping I can "breakout" and increase their value ;D ;D

Unfortunately now is not the time to go on your own....it may be forced on some but I don't know how that would work in the present economy.  As much as some guys resent salesman....you better be able to sell a job and that entails knowing what makes that potential client tick...  And don't waste time chasing jobs where they want a signature.... your lower price is not a factor at all....

Those that have been in business for awhile will always have rework if the clients are on good terms with them.....you don't have that as a new guy  UNLESS your old boss is dead or you ....That's why this Restoration expert hype stuff has worked so well ....just tell a client that in your "relationship" with Ross/Ranor/McKenzie etc you were left with all the secrets..... ::) ::)


I would say that the best advice I was given regarding jobs when I started was from a vertical structure architect...he used the old saying:  "Great" is the biggest enemy of "good"    think about that for awhile wen you think of the "breakout " thread and some of the other recent threads.....there is a much larger market out there for good..so don't expect to make it on "great"....it just has to come.....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Going Out on Your Own
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2010, 09:15:41 PM »
Don:

My old friend Tom Mead always said "loose associations" were the best way to go, and that sounds very similar to what you're saying.  I think the same is true for shapers ... if a few good guys banded together, they'd always have a fair amount of work, by approaching either architects or contractors.

Sadly, ego often gets in the way of this, because too many of the individuals think they are really better than the other guys, or because one guy's circumstances [financial, family, etc.] are not in alignment with the others.  But there is much more power in a collective.


Mike:

So it sounds like you are waiting to break out until you have enough lots lined up to get really rich off them.  Genius, man.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Going Out on Your Own
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2010, 09:15:54 PM »
Interesting that a  lot more construction firms submitted then GCA firms . What do you think is going on when a large well known construction firm partners with a local LA to submit a bid?

They probably get the LA (and it's whole concern) more cheaply than they do the GCA.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2010, 09:18:08 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Going Out on Your Own
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2010, 09:19:23 PM »
I wonder if one way to survive these down times is to partner up with likeminded GCAs.
Like Tom has written so many times, you simply cannot do it alone. But, if you’re willing to help another independent guy out and him help you… as long as who brings in the work gets the credit...why not? Maybe I'm naive, but to me it’s all about doing great work. You have your name on great work, even if you have to share some of the $$$ with another hungry GCA, so what if he does the same with you? I don't know if there are enough guys who can keep their egos in check to make it work, but it sure seems like a way to do great work for a reasonable cost in this tough economic environment. I just don’t see any new comers getting rich in GCA any time soon so if you get a chance to build something why not use every available resource to make sure it comes out great while spending a reasonable amount of $$$.

I just read through the firms that put in a bid (RFQ?) to build a muni course in Laredo, TX. Interesting that a  lot more construction firms submitted then GCA firms . What do you think is going on when a large well known construction firm partners with a local LA to submit a bid? You’d think they’d find a small GCA to partner with, but it’s all about getting work. Maybe there is a way to combat that sort of thing if small GCA firms find a way to pool resources.

Don,
In an idealistic world you thoughts might work....BUT those construction firm's  large equipment payments will be "designing" their own stuff and could care less about small architect firms unless they will do it for less than minimum wage...and even then they will take the lead and not let them do their thing....when a GCA works in those states he often has to work under a registered architect anyway so they would just as soon hire a local LA.  It is getting nasty and the construction boys are going to try it on their own in many cases..JMO...
And as you mention the object is to do "great work"....well IMHO many of the muni jobs will be "good" work....due to maintenance budgets etc.....
I think for now thew object is to live with good work on some of these  in order to fight for great work another day.....
Hope you are doing well....
Mike
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Going Out on Your Own
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2010, 09:21:57 PM »
Don,

It was a design build format.  I am sure either the contractor or the archie could have been the lead name on the proposal.

As to the original idea, I could write a book on this!  Great topic or at least a nostalgic one to me.

I came to Texas out of some misguided notion that I shouldn't compete directly with my mentors and should only open up shop a 1000 miles away. I looked in the local library and DFW was the only phone book without a yellow pages listing for gca's in 1984, had a nice airport and so I became a Texan.

As to getting the first big jobs each was kind of a fluke.  I picked up some work from my former mentor from Jim Colbert when Ken had some unfortunate issues that kept him from servicing the jobs like he should.  Bill Kubly had a job in western NB and paid me $5K right after I had quit my job. I drew the plans on my parents kitchen table in the few months I lived there before going south.

After moving to DFW, I got a call from an irrigation guy in Louisiana who had been put in charge of adding nine holes to his club. As it happened, he had just left his mentor, felt a kinship and hired me. I did another course based on having been the field guy for a well respected course for Killian and Nugent, and for working for half the price when startng out.  I got a city job because they liked spreading work around. I only heard about it because I was at a photo place putting together my brochures and saw a local land planner.  

And lastly, about a year in to my business, I got what ended up being a nice string of work with Larry Nelson because his agent was based in DFW and he didn't want to waste a long distance phone call.  Get this - I actually had my feet up on the desk and napping when the call came in, but the next day I was at the agents office and within a few weeks, I was in Atlanata meeting larry and looking at the project.  So, I guess it does pay to get your beauty sleep.

I only got stiffed on one job early (by another pro whose name you would know) and really only one big stiffie but that was over 10 years in (over $120K and was the thing that made me open a credit line for the biz)  My daughter was talking about starting her own biz last week and I relayed the mighty tale of my early years in biz. I remember my ex and I had $63,000 in the bank when we got married in 1984. I don't know what that translates to today, but that is the kind of cash (and a working wife) you would probably need.  I don't know many kids who save that kind of money these days, even without inflation!   I also remember clearing about $13 K on $65K of revenues my first year, then making $29K, $58K before breaking over $100k salary barrier in my fourth year. I was on my way!  Of course, those numbers would have to double or more in 25 years since I opened just to survive.

Like Ian, I clearly recall going from doing it all to seemingly working to pay some one else's bills and spending more time getting work. I have a business plan where I scribbled on the top, "Sell All Day - Work All Night!" I second Ian's notion on writing proposals. I recall going to Killian and Nugent at age 12 after deciding to be a gca and Dick telling me to study english and writing on my electives. He was so right!

Hate to bore anyone if that is what this does.

Of course, what I really want to hear is the heroic tale of Golf Club Atlas Design Serivces and see how they are doing in their first year! It should be a barn burner......
« Last Edit: January 28, 2010, 09:34:47 PM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Chip Gaskins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Going Out on Your Own
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2010, 09:25:35 PM »
sorry for a really stupid question, but do you GCAs get paid when your hand over the design drawings or after the holes are in the ground?

Tom mentioned that the client seems to have all the power in this process and that the GCA better not chose to use his rightful legal recourse...which is not the same in other lines of business.  Seems like you could discount your fees a little but demand payment in full when the plans are delivered, provided that your own firm isn't in charge of construction.

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Going Out on Your Own
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2010, 09:26:06 PM »
 Mike,
All this great and good talk gets confusing. A super with a low budget and no help may produce a good product which means he's doing great work. I'm not talking about rankings here; I'm talking about building good golf courses for practical costs. That is great, and IMO very rare, work.


Ian Andrew

Re: Going Out on Your Own
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2010, 09:36:23 PM »
Don,

I get your point, but there is far more efficiency in taking everything down to the minimum. If you work alone and out of your house you barely have any costs beyond the house. It’s like investing - nobody cares more about you than you do.

I actually worked out my “survival rate” when I went out on my own. With all fees, dues and expenses like a phone, insurance, etc. I need $700. a month to make nothing. Most of us are typically looking at somewhere around 10 times that to make a household work.


The small LA firm is used to having to keeping their fees low just to stay competitive in a tight market. LA is a far more cost competitive business than GCA. They usually win these if price is the key decision maker.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Going Out on Your Own
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2010, 09:36:48 PM »
Mike,
All this great and good talk gets confusing. A super with a low budget and no help may produce a good product which means he's doing great work. I'm not talking about rankings here; I'm talking about building good golf courses for practical costs. That is great, and IMO very rare, work.


You are correct as to the work of the supt..sorry for the confusion....I was talking about "ranked"(not rank) golf courses ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Going Out on Your Own
« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2010, 09:37:01 PM »
Jeff...

Not boring at all.  Thanks for sharing...that was great!
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Going Out on Your Own
« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2010, 09:38:38 PM »
sorry for a really stupid question, but do you GCAs get paid when your hand over the design drawings or after the holes are in the ground?

Tom mentioned that the client seems to have all the power in this process and that the GCA better not chose to use his rightful legal recourse...which is not the same in other lines of business.  Seems like you could discount your fees a little but demand payment in full when the plans are delivered, provided that your own firm isn't in charge of construction.

Most owners ask you to discount the fee and take delayed payments as well!

As Tom hinted, there are partial payments, typically at different milestones. 10% of fee up front, 10-25% for preliminary designs, 40% for construction dox and bids (if you do that) and maybe 20-25% for construction evaluation.  However, I have also done the 5-10% of the fee split out monthly.  Of course, I ask for 10% a month over 12 months just to see if the owner is paying attention!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Going Out on Your Own
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2010, 09:45:19 PM »
TD,
yep..just pure genius....gonna breakout when those lots are right...

Chip,
Out of the country I try to get half the fee up front. and however the other is broken out...they pay first and then they receive....you have no recourse otherwise....AND if the job is delayed more than a year you have a percentage increase....

In the states....every deal is different....

I think many of the big boys used to get the entire fee upfront.....but now I know of one where the developer has put the signature name out there and they haven't gotten a dime.....

"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Ian Andrew

Re: Going Out on Your Own
« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2010, 09:45:58 PM »
but do you GCAs get paid when your hand over the design drawings or after the holes are in the ground?

You usually get paid all the way along for larger projects and that is laid out in a contract.
Many begin with a lump sum for the design or drawings and then move into monthly installments during the construction.

The smart guys get lots at discount prices. ;D

I’ve had some renovation work where the whole thing is done before I get out my invoice and occasionally it’s a pretty large project – but I also find existing clubs always pay.

« Last Edit: January 28, 2010, 09:48:15 PM by Ian Andrew »

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Going Out on Your Own
« Reply #21 on: January 28, 2010, 10:13:02 PM »
but do you GCAs get paid when your hand over the design drawings or after the holes are in the ground?

You usually get paid all the way along for larger projects and that is laid out in a contract.
Many begin with a lump sum for the design or drawings and then move into monthly installments during the construction.

The smart guys get lots at discount prices. ;D

I’ve had some renovation work where the whole thing is done before I get out my invoice and occasionally it’s a pretty large project – but I also find existing clubs always pay.



I got the discounts ;D ;D

Hey...what are you charging for potraits?  I like the new picture....I thought you were Brad Klein after he had been at a waffle house for a week... ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Going Out on Your Own
« Reply #22 on: January 28, 2010, 10:36:21 PM »
Hate to get political, but being in your own small biz I usually get pissed at any Dems SOU address. 

I think all of us have in small biz have had the experience of having nearly all of our meager profits wiped out by taxes. In many years, it took everything I had in the bank to pay the biz tax and then I have to hear the Dems compare me to Rockefellers and call me greedy, etc.  Like a bad maseuse, that rubs me the wrong way!

I rented a spare office to an architect friend of mine who thought he was doing prett well in his first year until he realized he had not paid his quarterly taxes and it drove him broke.  Not blaming the guv for that one, but some days it does seem like you are just working to pay taxes.

You do learn over a few years in the school of Taxes how to pay out everything and not retain too much in profits.  Of course, this year, I don't expect to have to do anything special to keep profits down.......
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Going Out on Your Own
« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2010, 01:01:49 AM »
On another thread Rob asked:
6.   You have to be very self-motivated. Running your own business is a grind. Since you have to do everything from getting work to running the business, you are always busy doing something (that often doesn’t pay). It takes me evenings and a week-end afternoon to get everything done for nine to ten months a year.

I find one of the tougher aspects is all the effort that doesn't help get work.
I could think of 100 different things to do tomorrow and I don't have the perspective to know which one would be the best investment.
Almost none of the 100 things have a direct correlation to new work.

The varied ways Jeff got his initial projects is telling -- if he knew for sure that sleeping at his desk would help him get more work, he'd probably do it a lot more.
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Rob Rigg

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Going Out on Your Own
« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2010, 01:40:52 AM »
GCAs,

With the slow down in the US course construction market - Are you willing and interested in heading overseas (China, India, etc.) to get work or will you bide your time looking for jobs in - say - North America or your preferred Region of the US - which will likely include more reno opps than new opps in the next few years?





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