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Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The next breakout architect
« Reply #25 on: January 28, 2010, 10:04:25 AM »
Tom,

I have no doubt whatsoever that anyone so fortunate to work on your team feels they are living the dream.  

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The next breakout architect
« Reply #26 on: January 28, 2010, 10:42:26 AM »
Hi Brian:

I compliment COURSES, not architects.  And it would be hard for me to compliment any of the guys you listed above because I have never seen any of their work.  But I've complimented LOTS of other designers' courses, in print, in a book I wrote a few years ago, so I don't think your last comment was fair.  

At the same time, I don't know how you would really have any idea of what my associates can or can't do.  "Running the money side" has a lot to do with running a business, yes, but do you really think it has anything at all to do with being a great designer?  I put much more value on a guy who can jump on a piece of equipment and build a great green ... and all of my associates have proven themselves at that.

What could they do entirely on their own?  I don't know, and I hope they never try to find out, because that would be showing their ego.  If they have learned anything at all from me, I hope they've learned that the whole point is to turn out a great finished product, and the best way to do that is to find a bunch of talented guys to help instead of going it alone.  


Tom,

The book you wrote is now more than a few years ago...I cannot remember you ever complimenting any architect/designer (apart from Coore & Co. and others on your family tree) on here and that is your choice.  I do not remember you complimenting any new courses either to be honest.  If you can point them out then I am sorry but I would guess that there are no more than 5 you have complimented.

I would put Philip above most of your guys as he has routed and designed at least one course and now runs his own firm.  Most of your men have worked on some fantastic courses but have not routed their own course yet or have had responsibility for a certain hole but not the whole project.

Yes I do think running the "money" side helps you to be a great designer.  Jumping on a dozer and shaping up what you want is great design as well (for that hole or holes you are working on) but if you cannot run the business side you will never be a great designer you will be a "could have been". Shaping up 6 holes on a project is not the "full monty" in my opinion.

Just recently you seemed to be have been increasing the praise given to your guys and I feel that has something to do with them soon "leaving the nest" as you say and YOU are trying to open doors for them.  Good for you, if they are any good they will "kick ass" as you say without needing TD to direct them.

Tom, I greatly respect you but honestly, you never seem to compliment anyone, at all...unless they are dead.  ;)
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The next breakout architect
« Reply #27 on: January 28, 2010, 11:28:34 AM »
Hmmm....there could be a beatdown coming ;D ;D ;D now that GCA has all types of entities in the golf industry perhaps they would like to sell tickets ....
Look guys..odds are R Whitman is the man.....if for no other reason than his connections with the GCA entities which will reflect back to this site....think about it....the thread was begun by one of the partners in the entity.... ;)
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The next breakout architect
« Reply #28 on: January 28, 2010, 11:44:23 AM »
Mike,
You aren't suggesting that there are quite a few topics on this site that are started by someone, or one of their friends/bus. assocs., which have hidden or alternative agendas, are you?  ;) ;D

There's a lot more than golf being 'played' around here, and the list just keeps on getting longer. 


"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The next breakout architect
« Reply #29 on: January 28, 2010, 11:53:36 AM »
I've been on this site long enough to remember Tom stating that Wild Horse was one of the best efforts he had seen in 5 years, but that was admittedly in 2000, I think.

In all architects' defense, knowing the demands on their time, I can't imagine spending much time if any playing other new efforts. A free day probably provides a welcome opportunity to just go home!

As for the original question, I am rooting for Mike Nuzzo and Brian Phillips to stake their claims.

 :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Peter Ferlicca

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The next breakout architect
« Reply #30 on: January 28, 2010, 11:55:24 AM »
Hi Brian:

I compliment COURSES, not architects.  And it would be hard for me to compliment any of the guys you listed above because I have never seen any of their work.  But I've complimented LOTS of other designers' courses, in print, in a book I wrote a few years ago, so I don't think your last comment was fair.  

At the same time, I don't know how you would really have any idea of what my associates can or can't do.  "Running the money side" has a lot to do with running a business, yes, but do you really think it has anything at all to do with being a great designer?  I put much more value on a guy who can jump on a piece of equipment and build a great green ... and all of my associates have proven themselves at that.

What could they do entirely on their own?  I don't know, and I hope they never try to find out, because that would be showing their ego.  If they have learned anything at all from me, I hope they've learned that the whole point is to turn out a great finished product, and the best way to do that is to find a bunch of talented guys to help instead of going it alone.  


Tom,

The book you wrote is now more than a few years ago...I cannot remember you ever complimenting any architect/designer (apart from Coore & Co. and others on your family tree) on here and that is your choice.  I do not remember you complimenting any new courses either to be honest.  If you can point them out then I am sorry but I would guess that there are no more than 5 you have complimented.

I would put Philip above most of your guys as he has routed and designed at least one course and now runs his own firm.  Most of your men have worked on some fantastic courses but have not routed their own course yet or have had responsibility for a certain hole but not the whole project.

Yes I do think running the "money" side helps you to be a great designer.  Jumping on a dozer and shaping up what you want is great design as well (for that hole or holes you are working on) but if you cannot run the business side you will never be a great designer you will be a "could have been". Shaping up 6 holes on a project is not the "full monty" in my opinion.

Just recently you seemed to be have been increasing the praise given to your guys and I feel that has something to do with them soon "leaving the nest" as you say and YOU are trying to open doors for them.  Good for you, if they are any good they will "kick ass" as you say without needing TD to direct them.

Tom, I greatly respect you but honestly, you never seem to compliment anyone, at all...unless they are dead.  ;)

Ummm, not to take sides here, but actually one of Doaks associates has designed a full golf course.  Eric Iverson did Stanley Farms in Kansas City, and Jim Urbina is about as talented of guy out there.

My vote goes for Eric Iverson
« Last Edit: January 28, 2010, 12:52:43 PM by PFerlicca »

Ian Larson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The next breakout architect
« Reply #31 on: January 28, 2010, 12:07:14 PM »
Isn't Jim Urbina out doing something on his own? I can't recall if it's a new 18 or not. Something is make me think it may be a renovation? Oh well I'm sure Tom is locking and loading as we speak...

Matthew Hunt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The next breakout architect
« Reply #32 on: January 28, 2010, 12:09:07 PM »
Tom, I greatly respect you but honestly, you never seem to compliment anyone, at all...unless they are dead.  ;)

Then they can't sue him for slander of Image ;)

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: The next breakout architect
« Reply #33 on: January 28, 2010, 12:20:05 PM »

Look guys..odds are R Whitman is the man.....if for no other reason than his connections with the GCA entities which will reflect back to this site....think about it....the thread was begun by one of the partners in the entity.... ;)

Mike:

There are already at least four people on this thread touting someone in whom they have a financial interest or for whom they would like to work.  At least the people who are accused of being biased on my behalf are not on my payroll ...

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The next breakout architect
« Reply #34 on: January 28, 2010, 12:32:46 PM »
Billy Fuller...and I have no financial intersest in his business success.  In fact, I've never met him.

Although, I think Tom Doak will be the next household name...like Tom Fazio is now.

Mike Devries already brokeout.  Heck, if I knew who he was before I joined this site...he's got to be well-known.  I've heard about Kingsley from day one of my golfing journey.

I think Lester George is breaking out now (Kinloch, Old White)

Jeff Brauer has a hit in MN...I think he will turn it up a notch in the future.

Mike Nuzzo gets a lot of pub around here...I've never played Wolf Point, but it must be good.

Mike Young's more regional (but in multiple regions)...but once again, if I knew him prior to the site...he must be doing something right.

But Billy Fuller is my darkhorse pick for a breakout from obscurity over the next 5 years.

However, here is an interesting question I have for all the GCA's here.  Don't you need a marketing strategy to break through big time.  If work is slow...shouldn't you be doing some marketing...article writing, book writing, speeches, doing tour around the globe to meet and talk to pros, gm's, supers, etc?

Maybe I am wrong...but during dowturns the guy who makes the most connections andshakes the most hands will be one the forefront of peoples minds when the tide turns.

2 cents from a golf dummy.

FYI...I am sure I forgot worthy architects who've broken out or are breaking out...no disrespect intended...simply posting during lunch at work and time is limited and workign from the top of my head.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Tim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The next breakout architect
« Reply #35 on: January 28, 2010, 12:43:19 PM »
It's interesting to see that some make the leap that an associate of the GCA "Big 2" will be the next "break-out".  1st, one has to ask, why would they leave? Tom mentions "Ego" and financial reasons.  Ego would stipulate that they think they are doing all the work but not getting the credit.  Financial reasons would be either they think they deserve more in the way of compensation or the parent firm doesn't have enough work to support the staff and has to cut them loose.

But why did Tom part ways with Pete Dye? Was it one of the above, or was it he just figured he could build a better mousetrap - had a vision of a different direction - where he thought there was an untapped  opportunity? I don't know but since his work went down a different path than what Pete was doing, I would retrospectively guess it was the later.

  If those associates just do more of the same, will they be any different than those who left the last generation of production houses but did not (as Mike Stranz did) break away from the mold?  Or will they just be a knock-off version of the original, pretty much the same, only a bit different?

So, I guess the big question is not WHO the next breakout archie will be, but in what direction will it go?
Coasting is a downhill process

Michael Blake

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The next breakout architect
« Reply #36 on: January 28, 2010, 12:48:32 PM »
As an aside,

Does anyone think a 'regular' golfer (not a GCA dork) can name 3 architects.
I know if I asked some of the joe-sixpack weekend guys that I play with, they could probably name Jack Nicklaus and maybe Pete Dye and/or Tom Fazio.


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: The next breakout architect
« Reply #37 on: January 28, 2010, 12:49:49 PM »
Tom,

The book you wrote is now more than a few years ago...I cannot remember you ever complimenting any architect/designer (apart from Coore & Co. and others on your family tree) on here and that is your choice.  I do not remember you complimenting any new courses either to be honest.  If you can point them out then I am sorry but I would guess that there are no more than 5 you have complimented.


Tom, I greatly respect you but honestly, you never seem to compliment anyone, at all...unless they are dead.  ;)

Brian:

Some of that is probably fair, and some not.

I've said very good things about a number of modern courses -- probably the most about Kingsbarns and Chambers Bay, but others as well.

At the same time, when you're talking about the top 50 courses in America or the top 100 courses in the world, I think that most new courses (even most of my own) do not really belong in that discussion, and since that's where all these new courses are being discussed, I come off as being negative toward everything.  Context matters there.  

But, I would agree that if you talk to anybody that has ever worked for me [or for that matter anyone who has ever been married to me], they will tell you that I'm not free enough with compliments, and that even if something is 99% great, I am likely to be focusing on that last 1%.  I've always been that way.  It doesn't mean that I don't respect other people's work or appreciate what they do, I just have a very high standard that I'm trying to achieve and I think of everything in those terms.  I would guess that the same trait which pisses people off is also partly responsible for some of my courses being thought of so highly, because I don't settle at 96% and throw a party for the crew.

I have tried to correct that tendency the past couple of years by giving my associates more credit publicly on this web site, and on my own web site.  (You should compare my web site to Jack Nicklaus' in that regard.)  At the same time, I've felt obliged to parcel out credit to my associates, because some of them are better known than others and it is often the case that Jim or Bruce (who are better known) will be credited by someone here for work that was actually done by one of the other guys ... just a couple of days ago somebody gave me and Jim credit for Barnbougle Dunes, even though Jim has still never been to Australia.  As you might imagine that could lead to bad office politics, on top of just being wrong ... but to some observers it might seem that I'm taking credit AWAY from Jim or Bruce, even if I'm only trying to be fair to all of them.

As for commenting on other architects in general, I'm in a no-win position.  My associates would think (and rightly so) that they've busted their butts for years on my behalf, so I shouldn't be complimenting other guys instead.  There was one occasion where I was QUOTED complimenting someone else in a press release for a course that was competing with one of my own ... and my client didn't like that too much.  And, frankly, some of the younger guys who I think are the brightest of the bunch have still not had a chance to build a course they can call their own.

Just out of curiosity, when was the last time you read or heard or saw another architect giving a lot of praise, in public, to someone else's course?  Bill Coore is one of the nicest people in the world, but I can't really remember him touting someone else's work, with the exception of Pacific Dunes and Barnbougle, and he IS also working for both of those clients.  There was that GOLF Magazine piece back a few months ago where several of us were asked to name the best course in the last 25 or 50 years not by ourselves, and we all answered, except for Jack who picked one of his own.  

I guess if I'd picked something besides Sand Hills you would like me better, even though it would have been stupid to say anything else.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The next breakout architect
« Reply #38 on: January 28, 2010, 12:53:45 PM »
 I woke up with a zit today, so does that make me a break out gca?

Seriously, though, Tom's comments in the last post are very thoughtful and thought provoking with tremendous insight to some of the inter office politics. 
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The next breakout architect
« Reply #39 on: January 28, 2010, 02:14:46 PM »
Tom,
Don't start all that confessing stuff..I'm getting teary eyed. ;D ;D

Here is a fact dudes....

If you had a shoe store and had shoes for sale and a friend of yours had another shoe store down the street and had shoes for sale and you both went to church together and you both played golf together every wednesday.....Would you be telling people to buy shoes from him?  BUT if you were out a shoe and he had it ..you might refer them to him.....right?   If you are a stock broker in the same office with 10 other brokers can you be buddies?  Sure   Same way with this GCA stuff....so don't make everybody out to be an A hole.....OK...

Why I will never be a breakout....
Past employees rarely like you and never thought you knew what you were doing
Contractors never like you if you do the work yourself or you don't use them
I got no employees to quit and try to compete with me
I actually like and appreciate other architects work like Tom Doak ( I ain't no buttboy),  C&C I like but think supts sometime run the redline on them....Jay Moorish, some Rees, I really have never seen one of JB courses,I like Dick Wilson and Flynn... I can appreciate the work and thought at KC but just a little too much for me, and I like a few others....so don't say I can't compliment other archies....
ASGCA doesn't think I know what I'm doing....
I got no undercover dudes on this site promoting me
And my wife thinks I'm crazy....
So " I go that going for me"  so I will not be the next breakout

So everybody quit trying to agitate this crap and do a Rodney King quote...." can't we all just get along"

THE REAL PROBLEM AND A BIG PROBLEM FOR THIS SITE....
There ain't no new courses to discuss so we are digging up sh@t to talk about.....

So..OT I am on the board of this guy that is called Kingfish and our site goes public tomorrow check it out here....www.thekingfishway.com



"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jonathan Davison

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The next breakout architect New
« Reply #40 on: January 28, 2010, 02:49:58 PM »
THE REAL PROBLEM AND A BIG PROBLEM FOR THIS SITE....
There ain't no new courses to discuss so we are digging up sh@t to talk about.....

To use Mike Young's comment !
Here is the problem in my opinion, the next break out architect !!! will have to travel, and I mean travel, I think this current crisis will seek the men from the boys ! Work is no longer going to be easy to find, I think markets in the UK, Ireland and the US are almost gone !
Maybe our next markets will be China and maybe Eastern Europe. Ok, here is the problem, how many US archies are going to up sticks and move full time to China or Eastern Europe ??? ?
China I am not sure, lots of talk and lots of projects, different ball game all together ??
Eastern Europe, yes maybe we will see a number of projects, but I don't think the clients in Eastern Europe in many instances will pay the current design fees that the US architects are offering.
So the next break out Architect will have to be flexible, will have to travel, will have to design golf courses for budgets in and around 2 - 3 million euro ! This current situation is not easy for any body in the business, the next few years are going to be tough, if people are still having fun designing really good golf courses in the near future, then they are all break out Architects.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2016, 02:18:44 PM by Jonathan Davison »

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The next breakout architect
« Reply #41 on: January 28, 2010, 02:55:41 PM »
Tom,

Thanks for your reply and I understand where you are coming from.

Brian
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The next breakout architect
« Reply #42 on: January 28, 2010, 03:03:49 PM »
For all practicing architects it seems like posting here may be becoming an issue...I mean with GCA design services etc....
Think we should get Will Ferrell in here for us like he did Conan?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9gwAAmnl4U
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The next breakout architect
« Reply #43 on: January 28, 2010, 03:13:18 PM »
Mike, that was good - a great way to end the final show wasn't it.  I went to bed after that happy for Conan (33M$ 8)), he looked like he was having lots of fun jamming out on his axe.  Tom Hanks bringing out the scotch was classic as well.

Ian Andrew

Re: The next breakout architect
« Reply #44 on: January 28, 2010, 03:26:29 PM »
The biggest problem with any of these 9 threads on "architects" rather than their work is that no more than a dozen people in the world have seen enough work to have any real sense about what's really going on in architecture on a broad scale. We all tend to see what we already like by architects we already admire.

I've only met a small handful of people who will go and see “anything” on the off chance that they will get a huge surprise.

Each of these threads generate the same answers to the same basic question.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2010, 03:31:17 PM by Ian Andrew »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: The next breakout architect
« Reply #45 on: January 28, 2010, 03:30:15 PM »
Ian:

Who are those people now?  I used to be one of them, but I had more time back then.


It's interesting to see that some make the leap that an associate of the GCA "Big 2" will be the next "break-out".  1st, one has to ask, why would they leave? Tom mentions "Ego" and financial reasons.  Ego would stipulate that they think they are doing all the work but not getting the credit.  Financial reasons would be either they think they deserve more in the way of compensation or the parent firm doesn't have enough work to support the staff and has to cut them loose.

But why did Tom part ways with Pete Dye? Was it one of the above, or was it he just figured he could build a better mousetrap - had a vision of a different direction - where he thought there was an untapped  opportunity? I don't know but since his work went down a different path than what Pete was doing, I would retrospectively guess it was the later.

  If those associates just do more of the same, will they be any different than those who left the last generation of production houses but did not (as Mike Stranz did) break away from the mold?  Or will they just be a knock-off version of the original, pretty much the same, only a bit different?

So, I guess the big question is not WHO the next breakout archie will be, but in what direction will it go?



Tim:  I agree with much of what you write.  Everybody has their own definition of what "breakout" would mean, but if you mean competing for the best jobs with big-time clients, or attracting oodles of attention, I think it will be hard for anybody in the minimalist camp to break out as long as Bill and I are still busy.  I think it would have to be somebody with a really different style to offer, and as Jonathan suggests, it is a tough time to go out on a limb and build something really different right now.

As for my leaving Pete Dye, I was working for Perry Dye, whose work was all gravitating to Asia, and I didn't really think heading to Japan to blow up mountainsides was going to get me where I wanted to go.  It was only after I left that I decided I would have to create a style different than Pete's in order to get any work, and started trying to figure out how to build courses that looked like the great old courses I'd seen.  Plus, the one thing I knew for certain was that Pete did not need any design help, and Perry's projects didn't offer the opportunity to show what one could do, so I guessed if I was ever going to design anything it would have to be on my own.  That's a much different worldview than the guys in the office for Fazio or Nicklaus.

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The next breakout architect
« Reply #46 on: January 28, 2010, 04:14:35 PM »
Based on how outstanding his first two designs are (Bandon Crossing and Wine Valley), Dan Hixson is a man to watch over the next decade.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: The next breakout architect
« Reply #47 on: January 28, 2010, 04:33:40 PM »
Richard:

I have not met Dan Hixson, but I know that part of the reason for the success of those two courses is that he's had shaping help from several guys who frequent this site, plus Tony Russell in Bandon.  It could be that some of those shapers, and not Dan, are the ones who will break out someday.

Rob Rigg

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The next breakout architect
« Reply #48 on: January 28, 2010, 04:50:58 PM »
Brian brought up an interesting point earlier about guys being able to "move out on their own" and handle all of the aspects of a job - including the finances.

Is this a huge hill to climb for most associates?

How about associates who were "project leads" at various courses?

I would imagine the only way to see if you could do it is to give it a shot (and have someone give you a commission to work on)?

How much tougher is that first solo commission versus the second?

Tim Leahy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The next breakout architect
« Reply #49 on: January 28, 2010, 04:55:41 PM »
I would like to see some more work from Brad Bell, the scheduled guest speaker for the next King's Putter. I really liked Coyote Moon, Yoche De He and Empire Ranch.
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.