The next breakout architect

[Jeff Dawson]

Mike Keiser took some risk in the late 1990's by selecting David McLay Kidd to build Bandon Dunes. He showed great courage as he knew he didn't want to hire someone to just stamp out a golf course. Doak has had his great projects and property as has Coore & Crenshaw. The question I pose is who is next? Who will we be talking about five or ten years from now? If you had the means, the vision, and a great piece of land who would you look to if you wanted to hire the next great breakout architect?

[Ryan Admussen]

Rod Whitman perhaps, he's already done some great courses, but not very well known outside of Canada or even in Canada for that matter. Can't wait to see Cabot Links!

[Ben Sims]

Nuzzo's going to get his due soon.  Hopefully he'll have a "rash" of owners with the freedom of confidence like he had down in Port Lavaca.

[Michael Blake]

Ben,

I hope you're right.  


Ryan,

Rod is certainly a known quantity already.

[Rob Rigg]

Hopefully the "next" guy will get a chance with a great site.

In the current economy one would imagine that a developer could hand pick whatever firm he wanted and based on the past ten to twenty years of great courses there are only a few firms that would probably get consideration for an "all world" site. Here's hoping someone takes a flier on someone new.

I think Castle Stuart was a real coup for Hanse because he showed that he could deliver given the opportunity on a great site and Kidd has done it again at Mac Dunes - I guess both of those guys are "known" though as they were GMs architect of the Year in '08 and '09.

There are a lot of talented guys who post here who would probably kill it if given the chance to make a name for themselves on a great site - Mike Nuzzo, Jim Urbina, Ian Andrew, Tony Ristola, (please insert your name here).

I think Ryan is right though - Rod Whitman did some great work at Sagebrush and Cabot Links is a wonderful opportunity for him to throw his hat in the ring with the top archies - CL will be on the "global recognition" radar which is tough press to come by.

[Philippe Binette]

I would love to hear Rod Whitman about this status of next breakout architect (like he's a young rookie out there)....

I'd definitely say something hilarious about that, he's only been in the business fo 30 years (maybe more)

[Mac Plumart]

Rumor has it that "The Walking Golfer" has got a course going up soon.  Maybe this will be his breakout!!

[Kevin Pallier]

Who will we be talking about five or ten years from now? If you had the means, the vision, and a great piece of land who would you look to if you wanted to hire the next great breakout architect?

Mike Clayton

He has established his reputation on the Sandbelt - I hope he is able to show his wears it in the wider golfing world.

[Jim_Kennedy]

What constitutes a future break-out? Define that and you might have some idea of who will fill the position.

Trent Jones created the 'field', Pete Dye broke a mold, Tom Doak pissed 'em off but backed it up, C&C gave a whole new meaning to minimalism.

Just building another golf course isn't going to get the job done.    

[Mike_Young]

Before you start talking about break out...better see who can stay in the business long enough to have a chance at it.....

[Rob Rigg]

Mac,

If that ever happens I will defer to much more capable hands - while thoroughly enjoying the process (and trying not to ask TOO many questions)! Note - the course just might walkable

Philippe,

That is a great point - I know from my perspective I mentioned Rod because I think a global audience needs to understand how gifted he is. I recall reading an article in SCORE Magazine talking about the "unknown" Rod Whitman after he had been with C&C (I believe) and completed a course or two in Alberta that were excellent - and ever ranked in the homeland.

No disrespect to Rod - he deserves to be a household name - beyond Canada.

I would imagine that most GCA nuts, or golfers, in the states have never heard of Carrick or McBroom either, even though they dominate the Score Rankings (at least for modern courses).

[Tom Dunne]

DeVries.

[Rob Rigg]

DeVries.

Tom,

Was Kingsley Club his breakout design although he may not be properly recognized for it yet?

[Tom Dunne]

Rob,

I'm just going on the last three questions Jeff posed in his initial post, though given his first line about Keiser hiring David Kidd for Bandon it's possible he might have meant to discuss a different collection of architects. If that's the case I think it's safe to say all the younger guys in Tom Doak's office will have doors open to them and I'll be curious to see what they create. I think Dave Zinkand with C&C is going to do some good things. Chris Monti, Bobby Weed's right-hand man. There are lots of guys in their 20s and 30s who are gaining experience in many different and interesting ways.

I don't really know whether Kingsley qualifies as a "breakout" course for DeVries. These days the impact of even very successful courses is somewhat distorted by the state of the economy, is it not? And there are a lot of talented people competing for a smaller number of first-class projects.  

[Ryan Admussen]

I would love to hear Rod Whitman about this status of next breakout architect (like he's a young rookie out there)....

I'd definitely say something hilarious about that, he's only been in the business fo 30 years (maybe more)

Who said he was a rookie? Is it not possible to have a breakout course late in your career?

Yes he's designed great courses, but I don't think he has been given the credit he deserves and a course like Cabot Links will probably change that.

[Philippe Binette]

I know, Whitman's the best. Definitely not the best businessman out there, but as far as golf architecture goes, he's second to none... definitely one of the great characters I've met in my life too...

His solo courses are limited in number and being mostly located in Western Canada, they don't get the recognition they should have.... and knowing him, I don't think he cares so much about rankings, fame and all that... He's a happy man designing courses his way.
 

[David_Elvins]

I will go with Tom Doak. 

I know some might think he has already broken out but I think compared to where he will be ranked and regarded in the future, he is still very much under the radar. 

[Philippe Binette]

doak as been on golf magazine issues, his courses are known... I know the general public only judges by tournament golf... but doak has definitely broke out !!!

[Rob Rigg]

I don't really know whether Kingsley qualifies as a "breakout" course for DeVries. These days the impact of even very successful courses is somewhat distorted by the state of the economy, is it not? And there are a lot of talented people competing for a smaller number of first-class projects.  

Tom,

I am certainly not disagreeing with you - just wondering what you think the dividing line of "breakout" is.

Per my original post - while Kidd and Hanse have recognition globally as architects - I still believe they both have further upside. Whitman has done great work but really is not recognized beyond the borders of Canada and I wonder if, aside from on GCA, Mike DeVries receives much recognition beyond the borders of Michigan for his strong efforts at KC.

I think from an appreciation of GCA standpoint we are very lucky because there are several "masters" out there, a few archies just below that level and a lot of hungry guys who could really create something special given the opportunity - many of whom are or were on the teams of the "masters".

Not sure if it was like this in the early 90s, but I think the "return of the Golden Age" over the past 20 years has produced another generation of supremely talented GCAs, unfortunately the work (to your point about the economy) has dried up.

Like you, I hope that doors do open for guys who have worked for TD and C&C for a while - at some point they need to leave the nest, hopefully with a blessing, and head out into the world and kick some ass.

[Tom_Doak]

Like you, I hope that doors do open for guys who have worked for TD and C&C for a while - at some point they need to leave the nest, hopefully with a blessing, and head out into the world and kick some ass.

Rob:

All of my associates have my blessing, and I'm sure all of Bill's have his as well -- not just because they have done great work for us, but because supporting a big payroll is not so easy in the current state of the world economy!

Not to mention that there are plenty of young people out there who would like to have a chance to work with us someday.

[Rob Rigg]

Tom,

That is great to hear - fingers crossed for enough projects in the future to give the rookies a chance while not putting too much pressure on the current archies doing great work.

Hopefully the University of Doak will be able to bring in a decent sized class over the next X number of years to educate another generation.

[Brian Phillips]

Big, big difference working under Tom and going on your own, running a business.  There are MANY in Europe that I would put above Tom's associates (who mainly work in the field but do not run any part of the money side).

Philip Spogaard, Andrew Goosen from TPL UK, Tom Deignan from Adam Scott Design, Richard Chamberlain from Aussie, myself (if 40 is still classed as young), Kirsten Brown from Canada, there are many but all you guys see or think about is the States...

Although the EIGCA course is flawed in many ways it does produce a number of competent  and potentially good designers.

One day Tom might actually give another young designer a compliment without that person actually being associated to him in anyway...in fact a compliment to any other designer or design would be nice....   

[Tom_Doak]

Hi Brian:

I compliment COURSES, not architects.  And it would be hard for me to compliment any of the guys you listed above because I have never seen any of their work.  But I've complimented LOTS of other designers' courses, in print, in a book I wrote a few years ago, so I don't think your last comment was fair. 

At the same time, I don't know how you would really have any idea of what my associates can or can't do.  "Running the money side" has a lot to do with running a business, yes, but do you really think it has anything at all to do with being a great designer?  I put much more value on a guy who can jump on a piece of equipment and build a great green ... and all of my associates have proven themselves at that.

What could they do entirely on their own?  I don't know, and I hope they never try to find out, because that would be showing their ego.  If they have learned anything at all from me, I hope they've learned that the whole point is to turn out a great finished product, and the best way to do that is to find a bunch of talented guys to help instead of going it alone. 

[Eric Smith]

I'm all for keeping great teams together to do great things, but c'mon Tom.  Those guys if they were to leave would be assembling and leading a bunch of new or different talented guys. They wouldn't actually be going it alone, would they?

Call it leadership or fulfilling their destiny, or whatever. 

I'm sure I've read where you've complimented architects before, like Pete Dye and Bill Coore.  And, there's nothing wrong with that. 

[Tom_Doak]

Eric:

I was objecting to Brian's language, because it seemed to me he was saying that the people he named, alone, were superior to any of my associates, alone.  And I was trying to make the case that going it alone is not the way to go.

And most architects DO try to go it alone, because they need to, financially, or because their ego is too big to hire someone really good to help them.  I was not saying I thought my guys should not try to go out on their own ... note my previous post to Rob, just before Brian jumped into the discussion.  But I would guess that more of them have not tried it, both because they enjoy being part of the team and because they appreciate how long it takes to put a team together.