Do Folks Think This Is Poor Design?

[Sean_A]

A bit of background.  This is about 35 yards short of the green on a 200ish yard par 3. 



A look from the tee.


Ciao

[Jud_T]

Looks like a heck of a lot of fun to me Sean...When do we tee off? 

[Emil Weber]

I cant see anything that could be defined bad design in your pics. Do you mean the tree behind the green or the humpy bumpy fairway?

[Craig Sweet]

Love the "fairway"...the green looks too flat.

[Ron Csigo]

Should not matter since the intent is to hit the green in one shot.  Otherwise, it looks quite interesting.

[Eric Smith]

Very cool Sean.  I guess I missed that view from the tee in your earlier threads about the course.  I would never guess that the approach was uphill if only looking at the second pic.

I hope to see this course on the way to Buda via Manchester if schedules work out.

Also, everytime I see that first pic I think of that Chinese marble game...imagining a golf ball trying to roll to a stop down that hill, going from one little depression to the next.

[Bill_McBride]

Should not matter since the intent is to hit the green in one shot.  Otherwise, it looks quite interesting.

That might be the intent for you young flatbellies, but what about us older guys who would be hitting a longer shot / lower lofted club?  If that green is as firm as I suspect it is, I would have to either land it short and bounce on, or fly it onto the green and have it bounce over and down into trouble.

Having said all that, I like it fine but you might expect some fiendish bounces!

[Ron Csigo]

Should not matter since the intent is to hit the green in one shot.  Otherwise, it looks quite interesting.

That might be the intent for you young flatbellies, but what about us older guys who would be hitting a longer shot / lower lofted club?  If that green is as firm as I suspect it is, I would have to either land it short and bounce on, or fly it onto the green and have it bounce over and down into trouble.

Having said all that, I like it fine but you might expect some fiendish bounces!

Good point Bill.  I did not even view the hole from that perspective.  I tend to think given the elevation change of the hole from tee to green, the shot would come in a bit softer.   

Sean - would you be able to comment?  Also, were the bunkers ever filled with sand?  If not, looks like an extremely difficult up and down from the grass bunkers.

[Jud_T]

everytime I see that first pic I think of that Chinese marble game...imagining a golf ball trying to roll to a stop down that hill, going from one little depression to the next.

Pachinko Golf!, love it!

[Adrian_Stiff]

Sean - I think it would be better if that area infront of the green was level, at 200 yards not many are going to pitch the green and hold. It is certainly not better for being as it is, I am assuming a balls bounce is severley impeeded as it is. I would imagine its more that the club has no money rather than a design fault. That aside its a £1000 - £2000 job. One question does Kington have irrigation on their greens?

[Jim_Kennedy]

This hole could be the double to the 12th at Copake CC in Copake, NY.  Theirs is around 160/170 and the green falls away toward the back, very similar bukering and the same sort of mounding encircling the back edge, but no lumps in the fairway.   Good views at CCC, too.

Nice hole, great fun, not an easy par. I don't think there are enough holes like this, there should be more.

[Rory Connaughton]

Sean, as I view the photos it appears as though the slope could cause problems for a shot that does not carry the entire way to the green. Is this correct?

I see no problem with the design.  It reminds me in terms of playing characteristics of any number of long Flynn par threes where the green sits atop a slope (8 at Lancaster and 14 at Rolling Green leap to mind).

[Bob Jenkins]

Sean,

From where the photographer was standing in the first pic, it appears as though one would be going back up to the green, maybe a tise of 5-7 feet or so, or am I seeing things? If so, many shots landing short may not release as one would expect when looking from the tee? In that case a ball landing short and bouncing on, would not take off as much as one would expect. The hole looks like a lot of fun.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Sean,

From where the photographer was standing in the first pic, it appears as though one would be going back up to the green, maybe a tise of 5-7 feet or so, or am I seeing things? If so, many shots landing short may not release as one would expect when looking from the tee? In that case a ball landing short and bouncing on, would not take off as much as one would expect. The hole looks like a lot of fun.

don't tell Sean it might release in ways you might expect.  He thinks every golf shot is predictable!  He must be the best damn golfer in the whole wide world, though!

Sean, did you predict the Wings would blow a 2 goal lead in the last 2 minutes and lose to the Yotes in OT?

[Jim_Kennedy]

I could very well be mistaken, edit: and I was.

[Tim Nugent]

Hard to judge from photos but why would the rumpled ground be any more difficult than the many 200 yds water par 3's.  The only design I see is the green and bunkers, surely you are not giving the GCA credit for what was already there? (although you may wish extend credit for not distroying it)
From a design standpoint, I would have liked to see somewhat of an approach coming out to the fore bunkers as the green looks too wide and shallow for the shot.  Rather than blading-off the approach, I would have just "tamed" the bunms with a scotch-harrow drag as a transition and to assist in mowing. Plus, the green looks artificially flat in contrast. I would have liked it bigger with more bumpy undualtions mimicking the existing terrrain. 
This just looks like "opportunity lost"

[Sean_A]

Ron

Playing from the grass bunkers isn't so different from sand bunkers. The good players will cope with them just fine assuming they have a decent lie.  The cappers will struggle at times just as they do from sand bunkers. 

The hole is a bit deceptive as it is really a knob to knob jobbie.  The slope in front does kill balls much more than one would think, plus the green has a weird front to it which follows the slope - it is difficult to explain - almost like a mini false front, but I would hesitate to mention ff. 

Folks are right about the juxtaposition of rumpled ground with a flattish green.  Though Kington is full of "inconsistencies" from fairway to green.  The extreme rumpled land is found on a few fairways further from the green - including on a few par 5s which if you get caught in  one of those things it makes it very difficult to get a long enough club on the ball to go for the green in two.   Does this make them any less intrusive/better?   

This hole is probably the weakest of the par 3s at Kington, well its my least favourite anyway.  That said, the best thing about the hole is what the archies don't like.  What is most interesting about the comments so far is the difference between the archies and punters. 

Ciao

[Phil_the_Author]

It's a very young hole... Once it goes through puberty that'll clear right up...

[Jim Sweeney]

Tim N.: I guess that depends on whether one thinks a 200 yd. carry to a par three is a good idea....

But I agree with Tim and others who suggested softening the bumps in ftont of the green to some degree. As it is it seems impossible to bumble a ball up to the shallow green under the current situation with any level of confidence.

[Jud_T]

I see no reason to flatten the existing bumps in front of the green- are they really that big that they'd knock a good shot off line by more than a few feet?  However I agree that it would be nice if the green was a more natural extension of them...

[Tim Nugent]

Jim S.: Yes it does .  I was assuming we were talking back tee here.  Also assuming one who plays from back there is low single digit, then it really shouldn't matter  - it's point-to-point and if one can't stick a 4/5 iron, perhaps he should rethink his tee preference.

On a hole like this (taking wind out of the equation), from an elevated tee, I would probably be looking at a 5/6 iron as short seems better than long.

Jud: I wasn't proposing to "flatten" the approach, just soften it a bit.  It's not the size that would determine the degree of deflection but rather the angle of the slope.  Plus I would like to see a closer cut of grass fore the green and would need the terrain to be such that a mower could navigate it without scalping and leaving puffy pockets.  Hence, if one did land short, the ball would be free to bounce around a bit (rub of the green), you may get lucky, you may get screwed...

[Mark Pearce]

Sean,

I agree with your view that it's the weakest of the par 3s on the course, indeed it is my least favourite hole on the course.  However, I think that's because it's the plainest, most mundane hole on the course.  Leaving the fairway how it is is not poor design.  Levelling it would be, since it would make the hole inconsistent with the rest of the course.  It's worth noting that whilst the nature of the fairway can result in unpredictable bounces they temnd not to be as violent as might be expected.

[Adrian_Stiff]

You lot want the ground option one day, next day its ok to fly it into a green all carry at 200 yards!!!! This needs smoothing out infront, you cant have balls zigging 45 degrees in any direction.

[Sean_A]

Mark

I agree with you in terms of levelling out the land.  It would seem some arhies want to rob the land of its idiosyncrisities.  The reason those micro-undulations don't effect shots so much is people worry too much about "unfair" or "random" kicks.  These things really are far more predictable than most seem to think.  Afterall, isn't that what it takes to learn TOC? Much more often than not if there is a Jeff B random kick, balls will either sit or shoot forward.

Tim

It is worth noting that the club only cuts its fairways once a year.  The sheep are very happy to do the bulk of the job.

Ciao

[Bruce Katona]

200 yards playing downhill.  If it plays down wind the hole might play 165-170.  A good medium-medium long par 3.  The bump, swales and grass bunkers add some fun into the hole.  Its much more difficult to play consistantly out of a grass bunker than one where the sand is unifrom like the other bunkers on the course......looks like good fun to me.