Your 225 acre property - Which modern archie would you choose and why?

[Jake Straub]

The scenario is this (I think the exercise should be fun for those who choose to play)

- Real GCAs can pick themselves if they would like! Armchair GCAs cannot take a flier.

- You have a rolling site about an hour from a city that has a couple of brooks running through it but no other natural water hazards
- The site is 225 acres - rectangular in nature - you want to build an 18 hole course, range, putting green, chipping area and clubhouse
- There are a few specimen trees on the site but not too many
- The drainage is okay - the site has a mix of clay and gravel
- Your goal for the site is up to you - and that is what makes this interesting - 6k yards? 7k yards? 8k yards? Public? Semi? Private?
- You have sufficient capital to bring in any archie/team, sand cap if necessary and move a bunch of dirt if you want - but the less you spend the better (obviously) as the course/club needs to be viable financially

- What are your top three criteria for a successful course and how will they impact your archie choice?

Unfortunately, you cannot go through an RFP process - Who or what team would you choose and why?

How many archie's on GCA website have been blessed with this type of site?

[JC Jones]

My criteria would be a course that is fun with fun greens.  I would want an architect capable of producing this and also willing to put in the time on site to see the project through.  In addition, while budget is no concern, I find wasting money to be ridiculous.

Therefore, I choose Mike DeVries.  I've seen Mike's work on less than great sites, I've seen CC's and Doak's work on less than great sites and Mike is just as good.  As much as I love Kingsley, I don't think Mike has been given the same level of sites as Doak or CC.  If he can produce Kingsley on that site and Greywalls on that site, imagine if given a site like at Bandon, in the sand/chop hills, etc.

So, for my money it is DeVries; even if that means Hancock comes along.

[Steve Lang]

  Melvyn & Associates

[Mac Plumart]

This is a great thread and interesting to read.

I already know who my guy would be and the "why" is he is family and has a Top 100 in the World design.

But here is the kicker, first off I would buy more land surrounding the property...for a variety of reasons.

Secondly, I would not only hire the architect to design the course but I would give him ownership, sign him to a contract, whatever he would want, to ensure that he stays on with the club to oversee maintenance and "tweaks" in the future.  I would have the upfront fee be lucrative enough the guarantee he does the job and gives his 100% attention to it and I would ensure that the ownership/salary portion of the deal is interesting and lucractive enough so that he continues to give all the neccessary attention to it.

Thirdly, it would be a private/national club, with limited local membership, that seems to lower the amount of daily play and therefore maintenance issues from overplay.  And I would allow limited public play for an above market fee.  However, I would ensure a GREAT experience for these local players, so they rave about the club around town.

Finally, I would have a great but "old school" clubhouse that is totally golf centric.  With some nice cottages for people to stay in while visiting.  And I would live on the property with my family.

And probably, I would have 3 tennis courts, 5 pools, a water park with mutiple water slides, and a few roller coasters as well.   

[Jeff_Brauer]

Rob and Matt,

I have no idea what Ian and Mike Wier charge. I still get a few ops where they ask me to bring a big name pro, and so far, none seems to have grasped the reality of the economy. Of course, I take the preliminary offer to the owner and its turned down immediately so I don't know what they would negotiate down to.

I did have one pro me call on a proposal and sheepishly offer a fee under $100K for a few site visits that would have been worth it architecturally (which is rare) but probably not marketing wise.

I won't thread jack and its been discussed before whether the public shows up to play the newest course by XXX the famous tour pro.  As far as I can tell, it does get some people out there to look, but in reality, location, price, amenities, etc. end up drivin the buying decision.  The legitimacy of how much value a pro brings marketing wise is hotly debated in some circles, but its hard to quantify with facts and is more emotional.  (i.e., getting the extra couple of hundred K loan for the owner to be able to sniff some jocks used to be sexy and easy)  I wonder if the next generation of bankers will scutinize those development line items for the cost/value ratio.

Sorry for the detour, back to business.

Matt,

The key element is stripping and removing the topsoil as far as cost goes.  There are some sites (although this one didn't sound like it from its description) where the topsoil is deep enough that you can do some subtle shaping without stripping the topsoil.  In Texas, the black clay isn't that much different than the top six inches and we don't always  worry about topsoil in those cases.

Where there is a real topsoil horizon, I have generally gone for fewer areas of disturbance, like cutting through a hill for vision, but once I spend the money to remove the topsoil, then I figure I may as well borrow whatever I need to reduce the overall effect on the cost of that topsoil, i.e., cut deeper.

My training was to only strip where necessary, but in the last decade, I have run across more and more contractors who figure it will all get shaped anyway and strip all the topsoil on a fw with only partial grading. I think they are somewhat justified because once you shape a little bit of fw, it often looks odd to stop so its better to keep adding those subtle rolls you are talking about.

One example from last year is the 17th at Firekeeper.  It drained but had a pretty flat cross slope that was not far enough below the sight line and it looked awkward from the tee.  We cut a gentle swale just in front of the forward tee to create a small visual valley, but the constant slope meant that we just transferred the problem slightly up the hill and it didn't look any better.  We took a hole not meant for any shaping and ended up gently wobbling it all the way up.

[Adrian_Stiff]

The scenario is this (I think the exercise should be fun for those who choose to play)

- Real GCAs can pick themselves if they would like! Armchair GCAs cannot take a flier.

- You have a rolling site about an hour from a city that has a couple of brooks running through it but no other natural water hazards
- The site is 225 acres - rectangular in nature - you want to build an 18 hole course, range, putting green, chipping area and clubhouse
- There are a few specimen trees on the site but not too many
- The drainage is okay - the site has a mix of clay and gravel
- Your goal for the site is up to you - and that is what makes this interesting - 6k yards? 7k yards? 8k yards? Public? Semi? Private?
- You have sufficient capital to bring in any archie/team, sand cap if necessary and move a bunch of dirt if you want - but the less you spend the better (obviously) as the course/club needs to be viable financially

- What are your top three criteria for a successful course and how will they impact your archie choice?

Unfortunately, you cannot go through an RFP process - Who or what team would you choose and why?

Firstly at 60 minutes from the city its a big NO from me, in the UK that will mean almost certain bankruptcy. I think only COMMERCIAL. Assuming its 20 minutes away I would look at 36 holes with a practice facility. Commercially I would spend around £2,000,000 on the golf construction building the greens to USGA spec and high quaity tees using the same rootzone, I would aso rootzone the green approaches. I would shape the land either by importing inert landfill which may generate the £2,000,000 construction costs or by cutting and filling to create interesting features like an inland links. I would have a car park for 250 cars and a clubhouse of under 10,000 sq feet that catered for dining up to 120 but with the ability to have smaller rooms partioned into 30s. A number of smaller bar areas leading to a patio facing both the sun and the 18th green with water guarding the green, thats what the majority of people want to watch at the end of their day.
The golf courses I would design myself with plenty of water feeding into a main ake to recycle the water back onto the courses with full fairway irrigation. I would try to utilise all natural features and plant for the future. I would be looking for 1 course to be about 7100 yards from the championship tees but about 6000 yards from the general play tees and about 6600 from the members medal tees. The second course I would have ranging between about 6000 and 6300 yards. Both courses would be of good equal standard with a green fee priced at $50 and membership would be $100 per month, no forced dues for anything. I would have buggy tracks around tees and both courses would have their 9th and 18th greens adjacent.
I have written this before I have read another thread, I expect I know that the others will say but I doubt they will be like this.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Kelly,

I was going to post something similar about a rustic clubhouse, golf only, etc. I might add a small locker room ONLY to have those Pine Valley type shower heads!

Adrian,

I was also thinking whiile drifting off to sleep about course length.  My take is that if the US Open is played at 74-7600 yards then my course could be within 3-5% of that length and be good enough for anyone likely to show up to play, so max length would be 2-300 yards less than that or 72something yards.  I would hide those back tees as thourogly as I could and also have more tees, well separated so others didn't come into view.  My shortest tees might be just over 4000 yards so women and juniors could play the course in 36 well played long shots.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Rob

Did you know that there was an RFQ due today at the city of Laredo?
Tomorrow they are opening the Statement of Qualifications.
If someone wanted to learn about the business or architecture - they should go read them.

How many pages was your Jeff?

I'll pick my team for Rob's project.

[Kalen Braley]

Plan A

Jeff Brauer of course! 

Plan B

If he wasn't available, I would post a topo map of the property and hold a GCA.com event to see who could come up with the best routing.  Then after carefully reviewing all of the entires, I would tell everyone to piss off and give the job to Mrs. Huckaby.

[Mike Benham]

Noted - Mike Benham would rather use the 225 acres as a personal urinal than a golf course - that is a fantastic legacy

I would let you, Jeff and Doak all irrigated the land. 

And I would have comfort knowing that all my capital is still earning me money as the likely hood of this project being profitable in the near future is laughable.

[Tim Nugent]

Designer, me of course -think of all the money I would save.  If I could, I would collaborate with Gil Hanse (I think he is great at thinking outside the box plus at 6'5" we'd see things eye-tp-eye)  and get Jeff Bradley to do the bunkers.  I would do the shaping and tractor work. The course would be a core course.
No dirt would be moved except for 300' around greens, bunkers, and tees.  All would be cut/fill with no hauling.  Only a small finish dozer, track hoe, Mini-hoe, track skid load and a tractor would be used to build it.
Greens  Sand - not USGA) would be Pebble Beach small but with ample undualting surrounds.
Bunkers would not apologize for being hazards, small and deep but with open fronts that would suck balls in.
Tees - 8 small tees for a 4 -tee system to provide day-to-day variety and to allow for the ones not in use to rest.
Fairways would be very wide (merging when adjacent) and have the bunkers internal rather than along side.
Drainage, drainge, and drainage. Did I mention drainage?
Irrigation resevoir at the low end of the creek so I could draw free creek water as opposed to drilling well. Dual heads around greens.
Ideally, I would like to get the 3rd hole back to the clubhouse for late day practice rounds.
A clubhouse compound of small, individual, use specific buildings  rather than one mongo building.  Gravel parking lot.
I would build several houses for supt, pro and some multifamily/dorms for staff workers.  This subsidized housing would be part of the compensation package.
With 225 acres, I would also try to tuck a couple of housing pods around the perimeter - off the courseto offset costs.

[Garland Bayley]

As far as I am concerned, Hanse can cover it all from low end to high end. Hanse is your man.

Another choice who's work I have not had the chance to see, but looks very appealing is Kelly Blake Moran.
What do you say everyone? Let's bring that right winger to the left coast and give him an education.

[Eric Smith]

Designer, me of course -think of all the money I would save.  If I could, I would collaborate with Gil Hanse (I think he is great at thinking outside the box plus at 6'5" we'd see things eye-tp-eye)  and get Jeff Bradley to do the bunkers.  I would do the shaping and tractor work. The course would be a core course.
No dirt would be moved except for 300' around greens, bunkers, and tees.  All would be cut/fill with no hauling.  Only a small finish dozer, track hoe, Mini-hoe, track skid load and a tractor would be used to build it.
Greens  Sand - not USGA) would be Pebble Beach small but with ample undualting surrounds.
Bunkers would not apologize for being hazards, small and deep but with open fronts that would suck balls in.
Tees - 8 small tees for a 4 -tee system to provide day-to-day variety and to allow for the ones not in use to rest.
Fairways would be very wide (merging when adjacent) and have the bunkers internal rather than along side.
Drainage, drainge, and drainage. Did I mention drainage?
Irrigation resevoir at the low end of the creek so I could draw free creek water as opposed to drilling well. Dual heads around greens.
Ideally, I would like to get the 3rd hole back to the clubhouse for late day practice rounds.
A clubhouse compound of small, individual, use specific buildings  rather than one mongo building.  Gravel parking lot.
I would build several houses for supt, pro and some multifamily/dorms for staff workers.  This subsidized housing would be part of the compensation package.
With 225 acres, I would also try to tuck a couple of housing pods around the perimeter - off the courseto offset costs.

This is a nice vision Tim.  Cheers to seeing it happen!

[Tim Nugent]

Eric: thanks, hopefully some day

[PCCraig]

If I had my own piece of super awesome land (as the description states) I personally can't imagine NOT doing alot of the design and "top level" decisions. However understanding my limits of knowledge on the subject, I would ask for a designers help.

Who? None of the people already mentioned are bad choices, and all would do a fine job, but how could you go wrong (today) with a Tom Doak or Bill Coore? Or it may be cool to ask someone like JC Urbina to work on the project.

[Mike Hendren]

I'd do it myself with the help of Joe Hancock and we'd shock the world.

[Jud_T]

Mike Devries.  Just a cooler of beer and a portajohn.....Oh wait a minute, that's been done already....

[JC Jones]

I'd do it myself with the help of Joe Hancock and we'd shock the world.

Be afraid, be very afraid.

[Chris_Clouser]

I would probably pick one of the three that I have got to know off this site the best.

Mike DeVries, Tim Liddy or Tripp Davis.  All have different styles, so maybe a compilation by the three of them would be the best...

[Eric Smith]

I'd do it myself with the help of Joe Hancock and we'd shock the world.

...whodathunk that the Volunteer State would be getting the Joe Hancock Trail?

[Steve Salmen]

I'm surprised to not see the name Hawtree mentioned.  After all, he is building the best golf course in the history of the world.

[Garland Bayley]

I'm surprised to not see the name Hawtree mentioned.  After all, he is building the best golf course in the history of the world.

LOL
Presumably that is the one that is better than Castle Stuart. Sorry to break it to you and the owner, but the course will have ponds! No course with ponds can be the best golf course in the history of the world! See quote below.
 

[John Moore II]

To answer the original question:
I'd design it myself. Buy the equipment needed to do the earth working and do the whole deal myself. Yeah, it'd be screwed up, but I'd just tinker until I got what I wanted. Private club for myself and invited guests only. I have no idea how long the course would be, but it would be what I like in a course, might be 5500, might be 8500, I don't really care. My clubhouse would be a 16'x24' barn with just enough room for a grill, a fridge and some chairs (got to cut expenditures you know).

[Joe Hancock]

If I'm involved, will Jeff B. be forever angry at me?

Even still...I'm in.

 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Joe,

I ain't angry with anybody. Certainly not you.