Your 225 acre property - Which modern archie would you choose and why?

[Rob Rigg]

The scenario is this (I think the exercise should be fun for those who choose to play)

- Real GCAs can pick themselves if they would like! Armchair GCAs cannot take a flier.

- You have a rolling site about an hour from a city that has a couple of brooks running through it but no other natural water hazards
- The site is 225 acres - rectangular in nature - you want to build an 18 hole course, range, putting green, chipping area and clubhouse
- There are a few specimen trees on the site but not too many
- The drainage is okay - the site has a mix of clay and gravel
- Your goal for the site is up to you - and that is what makes this interesting - 6k yards? 7k yards? 8k yards? Public? Semi? Private?
- You have sufficient capital to bring in any archie/team, sand cap if necessary and move a bunch of dirt if you want - but the less you spend the better (obviously) as the course/club needs to be viable financially

- What are your top three criteria for a successful course and how will they impact your archie choice?

Unfortunately, you cannot go through an RFP process - Who or what team would you choose and why?

[Jeff_Brauer]

WTF, may as well say Doak or Coore and Crenshaw and vote for a winner in this election!  hell, we all know they are the only two who are deemed worthy of designing a golf course by this crowd and this thread seems like another angle to say "Hail CC, Hail TD!"

Even this thread suggests the winner(s), since it is OBVIOUSLY better to move less dirt, drainage is perfect, etc. Not to mention an RFP is verbotten because Gawd Help Us, we wouldn't want anyone else to actually get a chance to put some facts in our heads!

Hey, did I ever tell the story about what I accidentally said when I asked my ex to pass the salt?

So here is my question - Jesus comes back to earth...Do you go see him or do you prefer to watch Doak pee in the fw?

Hey, in all seriousness, I would probably do it myself, make it public and might very well ask to collaborate, probably even with TD.  I have collaborated with both John Fought and Jay Morrish on different projects.  I recall Lennon saying that he liked certain music and would love to talk to the musicians because he would never think about music the way they did.  There are some gca's out there whose brain I would like to pick (and others, just split their heads open but thats a whole nother bag of worms) and I have done the pro thing, so I think I could learn something and vice versa from working with someone who comes out of a completely different mind set.

[Philippe Binette]

I'd choose myself

1) My key strategy would be not to design a course, but a landscape for golf... look at the Old Course, it's not a 18 seperate holes, it's not even a course, it's more a landscape entity in which golf is played. The flow and potential flexibility of that place is phenomenal.

2) After that, well it's all about being inspired by the property to built a course that is specific to the site. A place like Oakmont has always inspired me in that regard since it's a bold overall concept : A shot poorly played should be a shot irrevocably lost, that translate in features that are unique and fits the particular site, ditches, bunkering etc.  

3) I think elegance and simplicity but still character, will be the next criteria, it's the way the game should be, you don't need flashy stuff to make a course good, acre-wide bunkers, hard to maintain features etc... You need a solid set of greens, a good routing and artistic imagination sense to produce a great course... but the great course must not be 250 $ a round or 50 000 $ membership.

It would be my first full design, that's another criteria...   I don't come it with the idea that I'm going to revolutionize golf course architecture, or be better than this guy or this one, I'd just build a golf course and grinding hard at the ongoing process of building the best course possible, golf course architecture is a process.

[Duncan Betts]

I would select Mike Clayton, because I am patriotic and I think he could do as good a job as others if given the tools.

Other Australian options aren't particularly appealing given what they have produced over the years, except for Greg Norman, and I think he's probably busy enough!

[Jim Colton]

Not sure who I'd pick, but I can think of a one or two that I wouldn't pick.

What's the going rate for some of the big names these days?

[Jeff Doerr]

Rob, I think someone regional would be cool. In the PNW I think Dan Hixson is ready for some more great works in the future.

[Rob Rigg]

Jeff - I know you have had your cheerios peed in a lot lately - so I understand your frustration - BUT I actually see this as an opportunity for people to speak about their "less heralded" favorites - maybe even Regional favorites who they would love to give a chance - or maybe not.

Seeing the work that Tony Ristola has done in Poland has been inspiring, same with what Mike Nuzzo did at Wolf Point, Whitman and Co. did at Sagebrush, Hixson did at Wine Valley, Mike D at Kingsley, and so on and so forth.

There are names out there that may not be mentioned on the site everyday and these guys are doing or have done great work.

People can also choose their three main criteria for success - some may want to build a fairly low budget course that leads to maximum enjoyability for many while others might want to build an exclusive club.

I am sure that some people will choose Doak, C&C or maybe even one of the guys on their crew - It is hard to argue with success.

As has been mentioned - the property at hand is not "all world", but it could be a great course and a lot of fun.

[Alex Miller]

To answer part of the question:


I would make this course the minimalist's oakmont. I want to be remembered for this creation, should I do some collaborating with whomever I hire. I am a low handicap player, and although that may influence my vision, I want my course to tip out at around 7,500 yards, play as a par 71, and have the ability to hold large proffesional tournaments, with the obvious goal being a U.S. f@#$ing Open!!!

While writing this, I've started to consider who I'd want, and no offense to Tom D, or any of the other archies out there, but I would choose C&C. First, of the prominent living GCAs today, they are the only ones (with the possible exception of Gil Hanse, Rustic Canyon) who's courses I've had the chance to experience (Bandon Trails, which incidentally was my favorite at the Resort, though we played PD in a half gale). With Sand Hills and Friar's Head, I think they combine visually stunning minimalist architecture with very difficult setups, and dammit this thing is gonna host a US Open so it's gonna be hard!

In my view, this is a one-time opportunity, so I intend to make the most of it.


My apologies to Jeff Brauer whom I hold the highest regard for.

[Rob Rigg]

Jeff,

I posted before seeing your Edit - funny that you mentioned "pee" as well - touche.

I didn't stipulate "no Doak and C&C" because it would be interesting to read everyone's reason - "because I love them x 3" is one way to do it but something more thoughtful would add more to the conversation.

I said "no RFP" because a list of choices is boring.

JD,

I have not played WV yet - but it looks like Hixson did a great job there.

Duncan,

Based on the threads lately showing Mike Clayton's work in Australia and Tas that seems like a very solid choice.

The site described would certainly have a potential "Heathland" vibe to it and Mike would probably do a fantastic job of it with his experiences at home and abroad.

[Mike Benham]

- You have sufficient capital to bring in any archie/team, sand cap if necessary and move a bunch of dirt if you want - but the less you spend the better (obviously) as the course/club needs to be viable financially

There in lies the rub, with sufficient capital, I would rather pee on the 225 acres then build a golf course ...

[Rob Rigg]

Noted - Mike Benham would rather use the 225 acres as a personal urinal than a golf course - that is a fantastic legacy

[Jeff_Brauer]

Noted - Mike Benham would rather use the 225 acres as a personal urinal than a golf course - that is a fantastic legacy

I want to know how he would design THAT for the prevailing wind condiitions......

[Matt Bosela]

If it was my land, I'd be looking at the following:

- a lay of the land design if at all possible to keep costs down.  You can accentuate the rolling topography by having a lot of 'movement' throughout the holes, similar to what Strantz did at MPCC Shore.
- a routing that encourages walking and helps with the pace of play
- a strategic design that embraces the ground game, offers options off the tee, rewards proper placement in the fairway with better angles to the pin and great greensites with short grass all around to add fun and options in the short game

That all said, if it's my land, I'm hiring Ian Andrew and Mike Weir to design the course, since A) their design philosophy seems ideal to me, B) they are hungry, talented and looking for their first big break and C) they're Canadian and assuming the land is in my own country, I'd like to support my own.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Matt,

With all due respect on your point no.1, if you accenuate the rolls throughout the holes, you have to strip the topsoil, grade it, and replace the topsoil.  Its just as expensive to move that kind of earth in "minimalistic" fashion as it is to move earth, say RTJ style.  Second, any savings you might have would be eaten up in Mike Weir's fee (if he is typical of pros) so what would make the course better for the same dollars?

BTW, one of the first thoughts that went through my head was that if this is going to be a personal statement course (as most of us would make it) I would prefer to leave 10% of the budget back for future tinkering, a la Ross at Pinehurst, although he was working on Tufts money.

[Ian Larson]

I would pick Tommy Naccarato. I think it would be cool to see a rookie design a course that has an obvious deep seated passion but without anything to their credit, and who "gets it". Kinda like Tilly and Shawnee. 

[Rob Rigg]

Jeff,

Just curious given the current economy (not that Mike isn't making some nice bank on tour).

Do you think a pro - like Mike - who has not designed any courses (I might be wrong here - maybe he has been involved in a couple?) would have a huge design fee?

Do you think Lehman had a huge fee for Prarie Club and Marsh as well? Did that mean the developer paid them "pro" fees instead of giving Hanse and Co. a full 18 (or someone else) for significantly less from a design fee standpoint?

I would imagine, note the word imagine as I have no idea, that Matt could get Mike and Ian for a reasonable fee these days even though Mike is a pro?

Matt,

Based on the quality of a redesign/reno that Ian laid out for a course in Toronto, which unfortunately was not acted on, and the quality of Ian's reno work elsewhere, I think that would be an inspired choice. I agree that Ian (and Mike) would create something really cool and special given the opportunity.

[Matt Bosela]

Jeff,

I'll certainly defer to you on point number one, since you're in the business and I'm not.  We weren't given a specific budget number in the original post but I'm reasonably certain that a course that sees a great deal of earth carved up will cost more than a course that sees little land moved, even if you have to go through the processes you outlined above.  It may be a small savings, as you mentioned but in reality, the point I was trying to make was that the designers could do effective and interesting work with the rolling topography as opposed to having to create something that wasn't there.

I have no clue if Ian and Mike would charge a premium for their services just because of Mike's status on the Tour but I'd imagine that they'd be competitive considering the down economy.

This much I do know - a new golf course design in Canada with Mike Weir's name attached will be very easy to market out of the gates.  But the key is to have a course that is good enough and entertaining enough to bring the customers back and that's where Ian's expertise comes in - I trust that his talent and passion for his craft will ensure I get the quality architecture I'm looking for.

[Pat Burke]

I too would choose Mike Clayton.  In fact, I recommended Mike for a renovation job here in the states, and was pretty sad he was not considered.  His work in Aus is great, and I would love to ee him get a chance here

[Michael Latham]

Your question parallels my real situation, with one notable and significant difference.
I have an option on a piece of land very similar to your hypothetical one.
The land is virgin woodland with many specimen trees, untouched for 200 years.The option is for an undetermined parcel of 300/350 acres within  over 2000 thousand acres, the proximity to London surpasses your location. The soil is primarily clay and will need a sand cap and expensive drainage to guarantee play year round. The land has excellent movement and elevation change.
I have been working with this option for over 5 years and only ever considered and showed it to two architects, Tom Doak and Mark Parsinen, (Castle Stuart), and my reason for such a restricted selection list was their proven feel for the integrity of a site and their ability to enhance excellence without an overwhelming need to improve upon it.
Before you ask what is the significant difference from your hypothetical site and why is this nirvana not under construction, the answer lies in UK planning law, but that is another subject.

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

I vote for Melvyn. Is there a budget for cart paths?

[Ben Stephens]

Well,

I would do the design of the whole clubhouse complex so that it fits around with the golf course with green building principles - have a large rainwater runoff to water the practice green that could be on part of the clubhouse roof and could have the first championship tee above the pro shop roof - Boony could work on this with me as we are Architects. A sustainable clubhouse for the 21st century.

The Golf Course - would do the layout alonside a good layout architect maybe Mr Doak of course and we could therefore give a template/area of each hole to 18 different architects on GCA forum to be further designed and detailed - could be the perfect GCA composite course. I would have the final say over the design of each hole to try and make sure it blends with the rest of the course - difficult task but possible.

Its a dream..........

Cheers
Ben

[Sean_A]

Well, given that I have no desire to build or operate a course and that it is a risky proposition at the best of times, I would first need to be so rich that if the entire project slid into a hole it wouldn't make much difference to me.  In terms of the course, as I get older I appreciate more and more the qualities of flatish golf and so I would be looking for an archie who is gonna be willing to be subtle with the land.  I wouldn't want some grand statement because after100 plays it doesn't much matter.  What matters is the how clever the design is given that I don't want long walks, long yardage and long climbs. Of course Doak springs to mind, but I haven't really seen what he does with a quiet property.  The other guy which springs to mind is Nuzzo.  Wolf Point, in a nutshell, is much of what I would consider the ideal course.   The other guy whose work in pix has greatly impressed me is Clayton.  

Ciao

[James Boon]

Well,

I would do the design of the whole clubhouse complex so that it fits around with the golf course with green building principles - have a large rainwater runoff to water the practice green that could be on part of the clubhouse roof and could have the first championship tee above the pro shop roof - Boony could work on this with me as we are Architects. A sustainable clubhouse for the 21st century.

The Golf Course - would do the layout alonside a good layout architect maybe Mr Doak of course and we could therefore give a template/area of each hole to 18 different architects on GCA forum to be further designed and detailed - could be the perfect GCA composite course. I would have the final say over the design of each hole to try and make sure it blends with the rest of the course - difficult task but possible.

Its a dream..........

Cheers
Ben

Ben,

You beat me to it on most counts there... and Sean's idea of being so rich it doesn't matter would be handy! 

Regardless of the site I'd certainly do the clubhouse myself, but I'd leave the exact style of the clubhouse till I've walked the site.

Assuming this site is reasonably local to me here in the Midlands then knowing Mr Stephens well, I'd find it difficult not to let him have a crack at it. If the site was further afield, I'd probably look for a local architect, but if I couldn't find one I was happy with then I'd probably also join the Tom Doak Appreciaition Society. Afterall it was reading both his Anatomy and Confidential Guides that first really got me interested in all this... If it was further afield I'd certainly ask a local building architect to help me out, to cut down on needless travelling.

I'd also open up the design of at least one hole as a competition to you lot on here?

I'd leave the design of the course to the GCA but would obviously love to have some input? I'd certainly be happier with a sub 6,000 yard course to a par of 69 than a 7,000 plus at a par 72 but it would really depend on the GCA? And I'd let the GCA know that I've always been a fan of fun green complexes, with plenty of options. So it would also have a pretty substantial practice chipping area and none of those damn "No Chipping Practice" signs!  

I'd also want the course, clubhouse and the surrounding land to be built and looked after as environmentally sustainably as possible. All that land out there why not double up as a nature reserve in the wilder spots. I'd certainly rather glance into the trees or sky and see a sparrowhawk, fieldfare or robin rather than some bloody housing or a hotel and leisure complex! Plus, I can keep my wife happy as she's an ecologist so she can look after that side of things. And while I'm at it, my brother would certainly be a good bet for head pro... And it might not make a great business model, but anyone from on here can play whenever they like!

Low cost, low key, low impact? A friendly, family run place? Sounds good to me?  

Cheers,

James

[Andrew Thomson]

I would choose Richard Chamberlain, on the proviso that it is a collaboration with Andrew Summerall.

It would be very cost effective and would combine experience with hidden talent 

[Kevin Pallier]

Good call on Richard Chamberlain - Andrew

It would be interesting to see how his "maiden" stand alone project turns out