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Kalen Braley

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If you follow this down the slippery slope...
« on: January 25, 2010, 11:35:16 AM »
....eventually golf courses could potentially come under fire if something like this stuck and legislation were put in place.

A new study suggests that, in certain parts of the country, total emissions would actually be lower if there weren't any lawns.

Previous studies have demonstrated that lawns comprised of turfgrass can potentially function as carbon sinks since they help remove carbon dioxide from the atmosphere. But the maintenance of lawns - fertilizer production, mowing, leaf blowing and other lawn management practices - may generate greenhouse gas emissions that ultimately exceed four times the carbon they end up storing, according to the study


http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/lawnsmaycontributetoglobalwarming

« Last Edit: January 25, 2010, 11:36:48 AM by Kalen Braley »

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: If you follow this down the slippery slope...
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2010, 03:51:03 PM »
Kalen,
Thousands upon thousands of husbands are printing this article out as we speak- to no avail.  ;)
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If you follow this down the slippery slope...
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2010, 03:58:53 PM »
....but seriously, in ten years so many courses will have switched to hybrid/electric machinery and dramatically trimmed their usage of chemicals/water that the issue will never materialize.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Doug Ralston

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Re: If you follow this down the slippery slope...
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2010, 04:47:33 PM »
Bralen;

A little overreaction to the study Kalen. While there are a fair number of golf courses around the planet, they actually take up an insignificant part of the surface, and their recycling impact is in the same order. Now; you might well get some local 'groundwater' or other complaints, related to specific facilities, but 'global' is several orders of magnitude removed.

Let me ask you a question: If studies DID show golf courses to be a danger to the global environment, how would you react. No one wants to believe their actions could in any way impact the general environment enough that the reaction might hurt them! Would you be open minded enough to look at evidence, or would you [as is constantly done now] assault the messanger and claim their 'agenda' is to take power from you?

Those of us here can easily see some of humanity's effects on even the global scale of our environment, by adding all the huge number of small things and multiplying by 6 billion or somesuch. I think we need to escape convenient denial here and be practical. Environmental cleanliness, even if not critical [and I think it really is], is just plain sense and much for the better. We should want to do it for reasons beyond danger.

Though certainly, if we kill off the greenery, we can have 'firm and fast' concrete fairways.  :o

To love the Creator is to love the creation. Not 'dominion', stewardship!



Doug
« Last Edit: January 25, 2010, 04:49:24 PM by Doug Ralston »
Where is everybody? Where is Tommy N? Where is John K? Where is Jay F? What has happened here? Has my absence caused this chaos? I'm sorry. All my rowdy friends have settled down ......... somewhere else!

Tim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If you follow this down the slippery slope...
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2010, 05:06:10 PM »
Kalan, the anwer is simple, just maintain 1/4 of the course, the rest will take care of the impact.  Also, make sure no one cuts their lawn. ;D Since the average course is 160 ac, that leaves 40ac of maintained turf or about half of the Arizona maximum.
I wonder what level impact the researchers plugged in?  The article didn't mention who they were (UC Irivine?).  Wonder what the impact would be if the mowers were electric?  Some other problems I have with these type of Ivory Tower researchers are *what is the alternative use?  *What would be the downside of that?  Do you think your town Fathers would allow your town's parklands to go fallow?  Actually, in my town, there are more native areas on our 2 golf courses than in our parks - as most of them are for outdoor sports and recreation.
Coasting is a downhill process

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If you follow this down the slippery slope...
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2010, 07:33:06 PM »
Interesting comments guys,

As one who thinks Global Warming is complete fiction, I don't think there is much if any merit to this.  But what does concern me are the laws being made and or potentially being implemented based on "silly science" such as articles like this. I mostly wondering if the political environment could swing far enough where they would actually do something like this.

Steve Burrows

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Re: If you follow this down the slippery slope...
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2010, 08:54:19 PM »
This is far from being "silly science."  Historian and author Ted Steinberg, in his book "American Green: The Obsessive Quest for the Perfect Lawn" writes,

"It is estimated that there are roughly twenty-five to forty million acres of turn in the United States.  Put all that grass together in your mind and you have an areas, at minimum, about the size of the state of Kentucky, though perhaps as large as Florida.  Included in this total are fifty-eight million home lawns plus over sixteen thousand golf course facilities (with one or more courses each) and roughly seven hundred thousand athletic fields" (4).

Now, let's look at the numbers:  16,000 golf courses at 150 acres a piece (which I am using as a high average just to prove a point) is 2.4 million acres, or just under 10% of the total.  Residential lawns and fields for football, baseball, etc., comprise the rest.  Clearly, golf courses are NOT the issue here.  Moreover, this other 90% is often maintained by individuals UN-trained in turf science or agriculture, the proto-typical "weekend warrior" who mows at too low a height, and slings fertilizer around like it's candy.  All of this, at least when a petroleum-based fuel supply is assumed (as it seems like the UC Irvine study assumes), will ultimately lead to devastating environmental effects.  Remember, the study is not saying that TURF is the problem, but rather the OVER MANAGEMENT of turf.  So, even in my defense of golf courses, it is difficult to justify mowing fairways 2-4 times a week, or greens every day, or the various other heights of cut on a given golf course at such intervals, as these actions are done solely for the sake of creating "ideal" playing conditions to keep a business running; each time a mower is turned on, harmful gases are released into the atmosphere.

Really though, golf courses are just easily lumped in with the rest in the mind of the public, because whereas it is apparently difficult for individual homeowners to each be held responsible for their actions (which is minute for each particular lot, though the numbers above will show creates a far larger problem than the golf course industry), it is quite easy to blame golf courses and their relatively high intensity maintenance practices.  It is perhaps unfair to group everything together, but maybe this just underscores the need for golf courses to answer the call to cut back their cultural practices and provide the public with a precedent to do the same (which many courses have already begun).

 

 
...to admit my mistakes most frankly, or to say simply what I believe to be necessary for the defense of what I have written, without introducing the explanation of any new matter so as to avoid engaging myself in endless discussion from one topic to another.     
               -Rene Descartes

astavrides

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Re: If you follow this down the slippery slope...
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2010, 09:01:07 PM »
Interesting comments guys,

As one who thinks Global Warming is complete fiction, I don't think there is much if any merit to this.  But what does concern me are the laws being made and or potentially being implemented based on "silly science" such as articles like this. I mostly wondering if the political environment could swing far enough where they would actually do something like this.

this is not silly science.  The calculation that lawns cause a net increase in CO2 is easy science and obvious science that can be done by a 9th grader.  If you don't believe in global warming, a) shame on you and the propagandists who convinced you not to believe in it, and b) of course you are going to think it is silly science.

Do you believe that running out of water is complete fiction too?  This is even a bigger problem with lawns and golf courses.

The easy thing is the general diagnosis. The hard thing is the prescription and getting the people to take the medicine.



Patrick_Mucci

Re: If you follow this down the slippery slope...
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2010, 09:03:33 PM »
Kalen,

Is the acreage under management significant or insignificant ?

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If you follow this down the slippery slope...
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2010, 09:03:52 PM »
Kalen,
I'm not going to waste words trying to get you to realize just how wrong you are about climate change, but think about this.

It's mainly about cleaning the air of pollutants. It really doesn't matter if we're near the point of no return, or if we can keep on polluting like we have forever and ever.

Forty years ago you couldn't drive through Naugatuck Ct. without a gas mask, and there wasn't a fish living in the river. Total reversal today, because of environmentally friendly lesgilation.

Not believing in stemming the tide of polluting (which has the side effect of limiting the changes to the climate) is like not believing in a god. If you're right, no problem, if you're wrong, you're toast.  
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

John Moore II

Re: If you follow this down the slippery slope...
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2010, 09:08:45 PM »
Actually, I think if we go this way, we're in real trouble, since farms take up far more space and carbon emissions than golf courses do. These surveys are overblown, at best. And actually, golf courses, since they actually have professionals running the show and managing the fertilizer, etc., I think they would be of less impact than residential lawns. Also, I seem to recall diesel emissions being less harmful than gasoline emissions, and most golf courses use diesel powered machines.

astavrides

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If you follow this down the slippery slope...
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2010, 09:46:57 PM »

Not believing in stemming the tide of polluting (which has the side effect of limiting the changes to the climate) is like not believing in a god. If you're right, no problem, if you're wrong, you're toast.  

Certainly true (for a vengeful god, anyway).  This argument alone is not sufficient, because I don't want to be forced to believe in something just to cover my ass.  The other part of the argument is that there is evidence for global warming, but no evidence for God ('you must have faith').

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If you follow this down the slippery slope...
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2010, 09:55:13 PM »
Guys,

I mean silly science in terms of the macro pircture. While its true that the climate is always changing, what is or isn't our roll in that is whats far from proven.  In most cases, even simple correlations can't be shown.

The earth has been plenty capable of moving from warmer periods to colder periods, over and over again... completly on its own.  So while its low dangling fruit to try to pick out things like this or SUVs, or other man-made inventions, we are far from showing accuratly what thier actual effects are.

Instead we have politicans who get up on thier soap box and spew crap from them mouths like Al Gore.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If you follow this down the slippery slope...
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2010, 10:51:08 PM »
astavrides,
Everyone covers their butt in some fashion or other.

Kalen,
Do you have the required knowledge to make the statements that you just did? If not, stick with golf and 4-wheelin'.  ;)
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If you follow this down the slippery slope...
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2010, 10:57:56 PM »
And here I thought you were going to use this to preach fast and firm, and minimal use of water and fertilizer. Then you go off on global warming is silly science. Stick to photography Kalen! ;)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If you follow this down the slippery slope...
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2010, 11:37:04 PM »
Regardless of what is causing the earth to warm up or cool down, I am certain I would not survive the extremes...

It is my opinion that lawns are a total waste of energy, a total waste of water, and a total waste of time....on top of that we have a thing called zoning and "minimum lot size" that guarantees twice the lawn anyone would ever need, or care to maintain....but we have plenty of people, and companies, that spend all their time selling us this idea that a perfect, beautiful, green, lush, weed free, lawn is so very important for our well being, and our property values.
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Matt Day

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If you follow this down the slippery slope...
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2010, 06:41:05 AM »
If you remove all the home lawns what would your replace them with...concrete, paving, garden beds????

I know my kids wouldn't enjoy running around the back garden playing on concrete very much

Steve Burrows

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If you follow this down the slippery slope...
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2010, 10:14:12 AM »
If you remove all the home lawns what would your replace them with...concrete, paving, garden beds????

I know my kids wouldn't enjoy running around the back garden playing on concrete very much

And that is why we have public parks.  Obviously, typical subdivision design (at least in America) tends not to keep such amenities close together, but "smarter" design would propose smaller lots, with less maintained turf, in close proximity to parks, shopping, jobs, etc., which benefits the residents and benefits the environment (or at least harms it less).  On the whole, however, we are yet to buy into such schemes, likely on account of our tendencies towards privacy and the over-commodification of land.

Golf courses should be no different.  Indeed, if there is a fault with a place like Sand Hills, for example, it is it's relative inaccessibility.  For all its praises of moving little earth and being environmentally responsible or respectful, getting there requires a considerable trip in a petroleum burning automobile, or an airplane flight and a car trip.  This tends to negate any advantages gained in the construction of the golf course.
...to admit my mistakes most frankly, or to say simply what I believe to be necessary for the defense of what I have written, without introducing the explanation of any new matter so as to avoid engaging myself in endless discussion from one topic to another.     
               -Rene Descartes

Jim Franklin

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Re: If you follow this down the slippery slope...
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2010, 01:57:56 PM »
For all of you global warming experts:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1245636/Glacier-scientists-says-knew-data-verified.html

The guy makes up his findings and presents it as fact.
Mr Hurricane

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If you follow this down the slippery slope...
« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2010, 02:11:03 PM »
For all of you global warming experts:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1245636/Glacier-scientists-says-knew-data-verified.html

The guy makes up his findings and presents it as fact.

And Tom Watson won two weeks in a row. I think it is clear that no other seniors have a clue and they will be run over by Tom in most future tournaments.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Steve Burrows

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If you follow this down the slippery slope...
« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2010, 02:43:05 PM »
Are you suggesting that turf, or again, the management of turf is not a "real" problem?  Just because something is not as bad as something else (i.e. cement and concrete vs. turf), it is not free of fault.
...to admit my mistakes most frankly, or to say simply what I believe to be necessary for the defense of what I have written, without introducing the explanation of any new matter so as to avoid engaging myself in endless discussion from one topic to another.     
               -Rene Descartes

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If you follow this down the slippery slope...
« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2010, 03:33:56 PM »
Actually proving Global Warming and showing where what we do as a people is actually causing tempatures to rise is akin to this.

After all, the guy heading up the charge is a "scientist"

For the past 50 years, scientists have scoured the skies for radio signals from beyond our planet, hoping for some sign of extraterrestrial life. But one physicist says there's no reason alien life couldn't already be lurking among us — or maybe even in us.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100126/ap_on_sc/eu_britain_alien_life
« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 03:36:04 PM by Kalen Braley »

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If you follow this down the slippery slope...
« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2010, 03:41:41 PM »
Kalen Braley explained!

Actually proving Global Warming and showing where what we do as a people is actually causing tempatures to rise is akin to this.

After all, the guy heading up the charge is a "scientist"

For the past 50 years, scientists have scoured the skies for radio signals from beyond our planet, hoping for some sign of extraterrestrial life. But one physicist says there's no reason alien life couldn't already be lurking among us — or maybe even in us.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100126/ap_on_sc/eu_britain_alien_life
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

George Pazin

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Re: If you follow this down the slippery slope...
« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2010, 03:43:22 PM »
It's always enlightening to see what folks consider science, silly science, and propaganda, so thanks for that!

 :)

Mostly boils down to who you trust, and it's mighty disappointing and confusing to see whom some trust.

Kalen is no more alien than you or I...d'oh!
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If you follow this down the slippery slope...
« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2010, 03:44:40 PM »
It's always enlightening to see what folks consider science, silly science, and propaganda, so thanks for that!

 :)

Mostly boils down to who you trust, and it's mighty disappointing and confusing to see whom some trust.

Kalen is no more alien than you or I...d'oh!

Got to apply the Pat Mucci test to that one George! Have you met Kalen? ;)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

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