[JC Jones]

I'll wait for Colton to crunch the numbers but I dont think we can name 50 courses in the US that are BETTER than the Kingsley Club.

I'll name 1, Crystal Downs.

Here are courses 41-50 on Golf Magazine's Rankings:

#41 - Old Sandwich
#42 - Quaker Ridge
#43 - Shoreacres
#44 - Harbour Town
#45 - Nanea
#46 - Chambers Bay
#47 - Somerset Hills
#48 - Ballyneal
#49 - Spyglass Hill
#50 - Scioto

Looking at the Golfweek rankings, it has a score of 7.59, which, when looking at the Classic and Modern rankings in the aggregate would put it at #50.

[Jon Heise]

#2  Greywalls.  You know it.  Let's argue.

[Tim Bert]

I'll offer up some in two categories:

1. Courses I've played that are clearly superior

CPC
Pacific Dunes

2. Courses I've played that I do not consider clearly better but that will end up on the list so let's get them out

Sand Hills
Ballyneal
Pebble Beach
Bandon Dunes
Bandon Trails
Crystal Downs
Pasatiempo
Whistling Straits
Pinehurst #2

I know my credibility takes a hit putting it on equal footing or better than some of the above but we all get personal preferences!

oh and category 3 - the no brainers from this group that I haven't played

NGLA
Shinnecock
Pine Valley
Merion
Oakmont
Seminole
WFW

I suspect we'll get to 50 but I won't agree with it. I can't see it being any worse than top 20 in my book.

[Brad Fleischer]

#2  Greywalls.  You know it.  Let's argue.

Jon I have to remove you from the list now . Hopefully after a few more play's you will see the light .

[JC Jones]

I consider KC to be better than Bandon Dunes

[C. Squier]

Tim, Sand Hills not clearly better than Kingsley?  That statement alone deserves it's own thread.  Don't know how many you'll get to agree with you, but it's surely a discussion point.

[George Freeman]

What a great idea JC! 

[JC Jones]

What a great idea JC! 

just because you're too lazy to start it

[George Freeman]

According to Ian's "Unofficial GCA Top 100" (adjusted) there are only 24 better and 6 equal:

Pine Valley
Cypress Point
Sand Hills
Shinnecock
Merion
NGLA
Pac Dunes
Oakmont
Crystal Downs
Ballyneal
Augusta National
Prairie Dunes
Pebble Beach
Fishers Island
Seminole
SFCG
Riviera
Friar’s Head
Pinehurst #2
Chicago Golf
Winged Foot West
TCC - Brookline
Yale
Bethpage Black

“Ties”
Ocean Course
Garden City
Rock Creek
LACC
Pasatiempo
Sebonack

Any other nominations to add to the discussion?

[Tim Bert]

Tim, Sand Hills not clearly better than Kingsley?  That statement alone deserves it's own thread.  Don't know how many you'll get to agree with you, but it's surely a discussion point.

No, it really doesn't because it will be Tim Bert against everyone else in the world and I don't have the energy, the credentials, or the compelling evidence to make it worth anyone's while. Suffice it to say I view Kingsley on the same "tier" as I do Ballyneal and Sand Hills.  They each have their merits and if asked each day of the month I would provide a different answer daily as to which I preferred.  At the end of the day, I think I view Sand Hills as favorably as everyone here, I simply place Kingsley on a little higher pedestal than most. 

[George Freeman]

Others to add to the conversation (most from the Fantasy Draft):

Maidstone
Shoreacres
Greywalls
Sleepy Hollow
MPCC - Shore
Cal Club
Black Mesa
Old Macdonald
Wine Valley
Ekwanok
Eastward Ho!
Chambers Bay
Lawsonia
Lost Dunes
Piping Rock
Wild Horse
Olympic Club (Lake)
Myopia Hunt Club
Creek Club
Inverness
Franklin Hills
Plainfield
Bel-Air
Old Sandwich
Boston Golf Club
Hidden Creek

* more added

[Garland Bayley]

You are waging a losing battle with this group. They have already put it outside the top 50 US.
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42368.0/

[Adam Clayman]

Meadow Club would be an interesting inductee.

[George Freeman]

You are waging a losing battle with this group. They have already put it outside the top 50 US.
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42368.0/

Garland,

On the "adjusted" list, which is supposed to be statistically "clean" (see the other thread for details), Kingsley is listed as tied for 45 in the WORLD.  Even the unadjusted list has Kingsley at t-54, once again, in the world...

[Matt_Ward]

George:

The real issue for me is how out to lunch the renowned Digest has been on Kingsley Club.

Look at the MI state ratings -- as well as the national top 100 -- and it makes me laugh out loud on how completely clueless they have been on Kingsley.

[Garland Bayley]

You are waging a losing battle with this group. They have already put it outside the top 50 US.
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42368.0/

Garland,

On the "adjusted" list, which is supposed to be statistically "clean" (see the other thread for details), Kingsley is listed as tied for 45 in the WORLD.  Even the unadjusted list has Kingsley at t-54, once again, in the world...

My apologies. The search function apparently can't find things inside his embedded ranking.

[George Freeman]

George:

The real issue for me is how out to lunch the renowned Digest has been on Kingsley Club.

Look at the MI state ratings -- as well as the national top 100 -- and it makes me laugh out loud on how completely clueless they have been on Kingsley.

Good point Matt, here is GD's Michigan list:


1. Crystal Downs
2. Oakland Hills - South
3. Arcadia Bluffs
4. Tullymore
5. Indianwood - Old
6. Forest Dunes
7. Lost Dunes
8. True North
9. Point O’Woods
10. Black Lake
11. Franklin Hills
12. R&S Sharf Golf Course
13. Kingsley Club

I know we've had this conversation before, but it doesn't make it any less unbelievable...Kingsley's rank above is so absurd it isn't really even worth debating...

Greywalls at #23 is also ridiculous...

I'm much more interested in the "Are there 50 better courses than the Kingsley Club in the US?" question.

[Jon Heise]

#2  Greywalls.  You know it.  Let's argue.

Jon I have to remove you from the list now . Hopefully after a few more play's you will see the light .

I think I've got a pretty good idea of what each course is all about.  6 rounds at KC, 8 or 9 at GW.  IMO, both courses are very equal in lots of aspects: conditioning (fast/firm), variety, challenge, quirkyness, do-or-die holes, etc.  KC is very textury and natural, but the spectacular views of the huge rock walls and Lake Superior win in a landslide for me.  KC is fun as it gets as a match play course, but Ive yet to post anything that resembles a decent 18 hole score there.  Birdies are common, so are quads.  That kind of bums me out.  GW has the same learning curve, blast in match play, but Ive been able to play near my handicap.

Now back to the topic... both are greatly underrated, but I think in time they'll make their move upwards.

ps, I also get the feeling Im one of the only ones here to think GW>KC (because I'm right!!!), and I really get a kick out of that.   

[Jim Franklin]

Tim, Sand Hills not clearly better than Kingsley?  That statement alone deserves it's own thread.  Don't know how many you'll get to agree with you, but it's surely a discussion point.

I started a thread about SH vs KC a few years back after a trip to Michigan. I agree with Tim, KC is in the discussion. While I like SH better, KC does not take a back seat to anyone. I do not think there are 50 better courses in the country. I will name one though, Rock Creek Cattle.

[Jud_T]

As for the GCA list, I know I'll get grief for this opinion, but personally I'm not convinced that Fisher's Island or Pebble Beach are better than Kingsley...

[Eric Smith]

I think I've got a pretty good idea of what each course is all about.  6 rounds at KC, 8 or 9 at GW.  IMO, both courses are very equal in lots of aspects: conditioning (fast/firm), variety, challenge, quirkyness, do-or-die holes, etc.  KC is very textury and natural, but the spectacular views of the huge rock walls and Lake Superior win in a landslide for me.  KC is fun as it gets as a match play course, but Ive yet to post anything that resembles a decent 18 hole score there.  Birdies are common, so are quads.  That kind of bums me out.  GW has the same learning curve, blast in match play, but Ive been able to play near my handicap.

Now back to the topic... both are greatly underrated, but I think in time they'll make their move upwards.

ps, I also get the feeling Im one of the only ones here to think GW>KC (because I'm right!!!), and I really get a kick out of that.  

Jon Heise, you...are a madman!

I loved reading that post Jon, and I value your opinion so please do me a favor and mark this down:

                            ......I.......want.........to.........play.........Greywalls..........with...........you...........this...........summer.........

[JC Jones]

I think I've got a pretty good idea of what each course is all about.  6 rounds at KC, 8 or 9 at GW.  IMO, both courses are very equal in lots of aspects: conditioning (fast/firm), variety, challenge, quirkyness, do-or-die holes, etc.  KC is very textury and natural, but the spectacular views of the huge rock walls and Lake Superior win in a landslide for me.  KC is fun as it gets as a match play course, but Ive yet to post anything that resembles a decent 18 hole score there.  Birdies are common, so are quads.  That kind of bums me out.  GW has the same learning curve, blast in match play, but Ive been able to play near my handicap.

Now back to the topic... both are greatly underrated, but I think in time they'll make their move upwards.

ps, I also get the feeling Im one of the only ones here to think GW>KC (because I'm right!!!), and I really get a kick out of that.  

Jon Heise, you...are a madman!

I loved reading that post Jon, and I value your opinion so please do me a favor and mark this down:

                            ......I.......want.........to.........play.........Greywalls..........with...........you...........this...........summer.........

This makes much more sense than your original post that referenced some cow?

[Matt_Ward]

One of the element that many people don't consider or even remotely contemplate is that Kingsley is better -- in some cases far better -- than a number of the so-called "classic" courses that are now routinely placed in the USA top 50.

Crystal Downs does play a role in taking a good bit of the spotlight away from Kingsley because of the Mackenzie tie-in but it's so hard for me to understand the mindboggling ignorance -- shall I say outright stupidity -- that has Kingsley so far down the pecking order.

The same can be said when the top public courses are discussed -- Greywalls is such a fun and exciting placd to play. I've said this before -- has one ever seen two better opening par-5 holes to start the round off with among courses that have opened in the last 25-30 years or even more?

[Chuck Brown]

George:

The real issue for me is how out to lunch the renowned Digest has been on Kingsley Club.

Look at the MI state ratings -- as well as the national top 100 -- and it makes me laugh out loud on how completely clueless they have been on Kingsley.

Good point Matt, here is GD's Michigan list:


1. Crystal Downs
2. Oakland Hills - South
3. Arcadia Bluffs
4. Tullymore
5. Indianwood - Old
6. Forest Dunes
7. Lost Dunes
8. True North
9. Point O’Woods
10. Black Lake
11. Franklin Hills
12. R&S Sharf Golf Course
13. Kingsley Club

I know we've had this conversation before, but it doesn't make it any less unbelievable...Kingsley's rank above is so absurd it isn't really even worth debating...

Greywalls at #23 is also ridiculous...

I'm much more interested in the "Are there 50 better courses than the Kingsley Club in the US?" question.

I am well acquainted with that Michigan list.
I'd put the Kingsley Club up about 6 places on that list.
Tullymore, in my view, has no place on the list at all.
True North, Point O’Woods, Black Lake and Sharf are all well below any sensible ranking of Kingsley.
Then again, right now, I think there are perhaps five courses on that list that I'd personally place above Kingsley.

Does "winter" count as a mark against a golf course design?  Seminole doesn't seem to get downgraded for closing for half the year.

Anway, Kingsley is a great design.  But so are a half-dozen others.

[Matt_Ward]

Chuck:

Quick question since I am quite familiar with the top tier MI courses - but can you tell me what MI courses you see ahead of Kingsley?

I will concede for the sake of argument and reason -- Crystal Downs and OH/S.

After that ?

You say a "half a dozen" others are no less great -- under that assumption you would then place those "other" courses equally in an overall top 50 USA listing.

Besides the ones I mentioned -- CD and OH/S -- I don't see any other MI course sniffing the top 50 save for the likes of an inclusion of Kingsley.

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