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Tim Liddy

Great article about Country Clubs vs. Golf Clubs
« on: January 22, 2010, 08:15:53 AM »

Rob_Waldron

Re: Great article about Country Clubs vs. Golf Clubs
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2010, 08:28:30 AM »
Great article! I believe at one point many years ago the expansive clubhouses were necessary at private clubs since they served as the primary social retreat for the privileged. They also served as "dining destinations". Those days are long gone. In most metropolitan markets there is an over abundance of dining options which cater to families. Look at the financials of any private club and you wil quickly see that the lions share of the costs are typically bundled under G&A or Clubhouse. The golf only model has merit it today's golf world.

PCCraig

Re: Great article about Country Clubs vs. Golf Clubs
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2010, 08:37:31 AM »
Perhaps the best thing that will come out of this golf construction depression will be the abandonment of those massive and gaudy clubhouses in the planning stages of many courses and clubs. It's hard to think of anything cooler than a modest little clubhouse that serves mostly as a place to change your shoes and drink a beer after the round.

Why cant every clubhouse be like the one at the Dunes in MI!  :)
H.P.S.

Jud_T

Re: Great article about Country Clubs vs. Golf Clubs
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2010, 08:43:24 AM »
Exactly, where are all those guys who were so adamant that they would only consider a full service club? Maybe if they showed the wife the cost breakdown they'd rethink...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Jerry Kluger

Re: Great article about Country Clubs vs. Golf Clubs
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2010, 09:52:51 AM »
The article is essentially correct but the numbers it uses are really not complete.  The cost to operate a golf club is not only the maintenance of the golf course.  There are also taxes, insurance, interest and principal on land and construction costs, golf range, golf shop, and other basic amenities.  The food and beverage operation doesn't have to be lavish and can operate at a break even point if done correctly. I would suggest that the tennis and pool operations are primary factors in adding costs to club operations.

Jud_T

Re: Great article about Country Clubs vs. Golf Clubs
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2010, 09:56:38 AM »
Jerry,

Some of the best courses I've played have either a very rudimentary range or no range at all....
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Jason Topp

Re: Great article about Country Clubs vs. Golf Clubs
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2010, 10:02:08 AM »
My club has far more social members than golf members.  If we were golf only I think we would be in trouble.

SB

Re: Great article about Country Clubs vs. Golf Clubs
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2010, 10:02:23 AM »
To quote a different conversation, it's not just size but what you do with it.

Banquet rooms pay for themselves, dining rooms (especially lots of small ones) do not.  If they are modest, pools, tennis, and fitness rooms pay for themselves with an addiitional members (and dues).  Where clubhouses get killed is with lots of completely unused space that costs money (to heat, cool, and repair), over the top pools, tennis and fitness that cost more to maintain than they generate in revenue, and rediculous finish costs that result in more upfront costs and higher property taxes.  

I was recently at a club that had a 50,000 sf clubhouse.  It had 8 dining areas, but the largest one could seat no more than 70 people.  They have to hold weddings in a tent on the lawn, and were considering expanding the clubhouse.  If the club was 100 or even 40 years old, I could understand it, but this one had just opened.  Now they have to heat and cool all of these spaces (that are not being used), plus there are two kitchens that need to be staffed, etc.  

That said, I'm not going to jump on the bandwagon and blame all of the problems on the clubhouse.  There are just as many instances of money going to waste on the golf course.  The article even references an average golf maintenance budget of $1.5M, which is absurd.  Plus, there's a lot of costs beyond just the golf course maintenance that you have to pay for whether you have a country club or a golf club.  Pro shop staff, property taxes, utilities, insurance, repairs, etc.  In general, I would say clubhouses and amenities don't have to be a drag.  Its usually politics, poor management, or in the case above, poor planning, that often make it so.

All that being said, my favorite clubhouse is the one at Newport Country Club which is essentially a bar and a locker room.  And a beat up one at that.

Mike Demetriou

Re: Great article about Country Clubs vs. Golf Clubs
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2010, 10:18:25 AM »
There are some truly great courses though, to which are attached massive clubhouses and family friendly activity offerings. Olympia Fields comes to mind. With a young daughter and home, I would relish the chance for the entire family to go somewhere on the weekend, where we can all be together, and yet enjoying our favorite things in our own way. 

Land is at a premium now, and most of the truly exceptional new courses don't cater to this anymore. I rarely say this, but I like the "old" way better. Having said that, putting my money where my mouth is, I only belong to one club - it is nowhere NEAR my home - and they have a double-wide for a clubhouse.

But it is a really nice double-wide.


Tim Nugent

Re: Great article about Country Clubs vs. Golf Clubs
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2010, 10:40:26 AM »
A clubhouse architect once told me, "A clubhouse is the house that committee members would build for themselves if they had 300 other people paying for it".

I built our daily fee clubhouse for $450k, - 3,000 sf - one level.  We netted more $$$ when we operated out of single-wide (although the ladies complained about the porta-poddy)  ;D
Coasting is a downhill process

Dan Boerger

Re: Great article about Country Clubs vs. Golf Clubs
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2010, 10:52:07 AM »
Nice little article (mostly because I'm playing Whisper Rock in February), but whoever claimed one size fits all? My observation is that if you do have a full service club and clubhouse you better have the staff and systems in place to monetize plenty of ways.
"Man should practice moderation in all things, including moderation."  Mark Twain

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