Simple question...define a Ross bunker for me....

[Mike_Young]

Can anyone tell me what a Ross bunker is and why it is any different than a 100 other architect's bunker concept....
I continue to be amazed at what intelligent business people will believe when it comes to golf.

[TEPaul]

Mike:

The best place to understand or define  Ross bunkers is to simply read his own manuscript (that became the book "Golf Has Never Failed me").

In it Ross got into the subject of bunkers fairly thoroughly and one can see from that there was never some single type or style that can be looked at as "A Ross Bunker." The point is he both visualized and used a number of different types and styles I guess depending on where he was and when in his career even though, apparently that manuscript was written in the mid teens.

[Yannick Pilon]

Can't wait to see what kind of answers you will get with this one , Mike.

I've been trying to find out the answer to that same question lately, with no results yet!

Tom response is a good one, though.  The same question could apply to Tillinghast.

Good luck!

YP

[Phil_the_Author]

Mike,

Its a hole with sand in it... The sane as every other architect's. Now, could it be that it is the location and placement of it which makes it different and definable?

[Mike Sweeney]

You need some REAL New England guys to answer:



I have not played it but from what you can see on a bike, Sakonnet in Little Compton, RI looks like old school Ross to me. Low key, nothing fancy but well placed.



Essex County (MA) would be my guess for Bolder Ross:

http://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/essex-county-club

[Adam Russell]

Methinks this has to do with a certain restoration with too many club members involved in it...

[Brett Hochstein]

TEPaul is right.  There is no distinct style with regards to form, and you will see this in his books with regard to philosophies and accompanying construction sketches.  Proof is found in the old photos, especially the ones at Oakland Hills.  I would bet very few would label those monstrous blasts as "Ross bunkers" having not known which course it was when asked.

I would wonder though if you could pick up on placement patterns i.e. staggering lengths of opposing bunkers and having bunkers cross halfway across the green 40 yards from the front of said green.

[George Pazin]

One of the best threads we've ever had on this site was a Tom MacWood thread that addressed this very question. It was a bunker quiz, and it fooled a heckuva lot of people. I will try to find it.

[Roger Wolfe]

Remember Ross was a superintendent and a hell of a player.  Aesthetics were not necessarily his
mission when building bunkers.  Maintainability and strategy were his "bunker goals."

Flat bottom, no flashing, grass bunker banks, no flashing, irregular faces, no flashing and no flashing.

[Mike_Young]

So far the definition for a bunker and a Ross bunker are the same....right

But it sure sounds good.....

[Tim Nugent]

is this a trick question?

[Kyle Harris]

Duh.

A bunker placed on the golf course as a result of a Donald Ross plan.

[Mike_Young]

is this a trick question?

Has been for years....
p.s.  left you a voice mail on office phone earlier today...

[Lester George]

Mike,

Great question!  All you have to do is read the many and varied responses and you'll know.  I am however surprised that all of the "Ross Experts" have not chimed in. 

Roger,

You only need to do a little research to find that Ross had considerable "flashing" on some of his courses.


Tom Paul,

Your answer is very good on this issue.  Well done.


Lester

[Joe Hancock]

One of the best threads we've ever had on this site was a Tom MacWood thread that addressed this very question. It was a bunker quiz, and it fooled a heckuva lot of people. I will try to find it.

I remember the quiz as well, but I thought it was Ian Andrew who posed it......

I think Roger Wolfe's answer is what most people think is the correct answer, but old photo's prove it wrong.

Joe

[Jeff_Brauer]

From old pix in Golf Has Never Failed Me, I have come to the possibly wrong conclusion that it depends somewhat on which office was buiding the course for him. In particular, the Chicago crew seems to have a more modern look than the NE crew.

We also have to recall that in addition to thousands of construction personell, dozens of foremen and draftsmen, his career spanned about 50 years and he might have evolved somewhat.  At the very least, you might ask about early, late, and perhaps "unique" Ross bunkers, as supposedly happened at Seminole.

[Garland Bayley]

A Ross bunker is that style of bunker that Mike Young has been copying his whole career.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Why would anyone even try to answer Mike's question, he's not looking for an answer. 

[Ian Andrew]

[I remember the quiz as well, but I thought it was Ian Andrew who posed it.....

I wish. It was a master stroke that reminded us all about "what we don't know."

I had done about a half dozen Architects Quizzes - where you named the architect relevent to the photo  - before Tom made his point with his all Ross quiz.

It was my pick for thread of the year.

[Bill_McBride]

Remember Ross was a superintendent and a hell of a player.  Aesthetics were not necessarily his
mission when building bunkers.  Maintainability and strategy were his "bunker goals."

Flat bottom, no flashing, grass bunker banks, no flashing, irregular faces, no flashing and no flashing.

A modern version of a "Ross bunker' in Northwest Florida...........per Roger's definition:

[TEPaul]

One of problems (potential or real) I've had over the years with the Donald Ross book---"Golf Has Never Failed Me" is which in it are Ross's actual words and which are Ron Whitten's? As I recall it isn't particularly obvious. I mention this because I believe I recall (I'll check) that it says in the foreword of that book that Ross's manuscript which was cracked up to basically be the book was written pretty damn early, like in the mid-teens, and then languished in a drawer somewhere until discovered again maybe 80 years later or so. If that is true and the chapter on bunkers really is Ross from the mid-teens, I think that says something about him and the way he looked at bunkers (all kinds of shapes and types) very early on in his long and impressive career in which the style of his courses definitely evolved.

[Tom MacWood]

Ross had a very long career and his bunker style evolved and changed throughout his career. Other factors include the nature of the site and which of his associates was involved in construction.

[RSLivingston_III]

Did Ross' associates always do the course construction or did he work with the course owners to use other construction crews? Thus other bunker looks when they didn't adhere to the strictly to the drawings?

[Mike_Young]

Why would anyone even try to answer Mike's question, he's not looking for an answer. 

 

[Tom MacWood]

Did Ross' associates always do the course construction or did he work with the course owners to use other construction crews? Thus other bunker looks when they didn't adhere to the strictly to the drawings?

No, he didn't always have associates construct his designs, especially the first decade or so of his career when he was getting established.

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