[Jaeger Kovich]

From the official site of pinehurst: www.pinehurst.com:

COURSE NO. 4
Tom Fazio, 2000
Don't let the number fool you. We kept the old name, even the majority of Ross' original routing. But in 2000, Fazio officially opened No. 4 as a brand new course, his Tribute to Pinehurst. Site of the 2008 U.S. Amateur, it offers a championship challenge to those who dare, including over 140 pot bunkers that dot the landscape. It also offers some of the most picturesque scenes at Pinehurst, including the 13th and 14th water holes.
Pinehurst is proud to be the site of the 2008 US Amateur Championship.


Can someone give me some real information about this golf course?!

[Brent Carlson]

Jaeger,

I played this course for the Donald Ross junior event in '97.  It was a fun course and I would give it a 5.  I remember it being minimalist and straightforward.  Obviously it has been renovated by Fazio so I have no insight there. 

Interested to hear what others think....

[Chris Buie]

The Fazio routing is closer than the previous incarnation.  That is about the only aspect that resembles the Ross original.  It has the turtle back greens - but definitely not as Ross did them.  Ross designed it in 1919.  RT Jones worked on it in the early 70's and his son did the same in the 80's.
Basically, it is not a Ross course.  It is quite tough.  Very little bail out room on your approach and very difficult pitches when you miss the middle of the green. 
Here is the 1922 version of #4:


If you like you can take a full tour of the current version here:
http://sandhillsinsider.com/4course/4coursetour.html

[Ronald Montesano]

I love the stretch of wasteland on 7 hole of course # 2...I don't remember the hole at all from my single round in 1982...is that still there?  Looks very Hells Half Acre of something.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Stronger than 40 acres of onions....  (Orville Moody quote).  JC

[Chris Buie]

Ronald, if you are referring to the old map I posted above - the 7th hole of #2 on that map is now actually the 10th hole.  A 600+ yard par 5.  Unfortunately the waste area in the middle of the hole is not there.  However, Crenshaw (and Coore?) have been looking at #2 course and may make some very good changes to it.  It's pretty much wall-to-wall greenery now rather than having a distinctive naturalistic look. 
I forgot to mention that Fazio added a huge amount of very small bunkers to #4.  No other Pinehurst course is bunkered like that.  You can decide for yourself the architectural merit of that.  Here are a couple of examples:

[Jud_T]

Jaeger,

There's only 1 course worth playing at the resort proper, IMHO. The others pale in comparison.  There are several more worthy courses outside the resort....see other posts....

[Roger Wolfe]

I have played it many times.  While #2 is very flat and almost municipal... the best way to describe #4 is a modern tee/fairway design with #2 greens.  I don't say "Ross greens" for a reason.  I consider #2 greens to be Ross with fifty years of topdressing.  I consider #4 to be a replica of the "50 year topdressed Ross" greens.  It's pretty course with lots of elevation change.  Definitely worth playing.

The pot bunkers are, for lack of a better word, silly and if I remember are mostly clustered out of play on a short par 4.  The water holes are dramatic.  If you cannot afford #2... but want to know what it's like to play the greens... play #4.

[Sean_A]

I am sure glad there are professional architects about because the bunker work here looks about as amateurish as it can. 

Ciao

[Roger Wolfe]

I am sure glad there are professional architects about because the bunker work here looks about as amateurish as it can. 

Ciao

My memory was right... out of play and silly.  Thanks Sean.

[Rory Connaughton]

I find No. 4 to be interesting in that it looks like it should be very difficult but in reality it is very much a course designed to ensure that guests get around with the least trouble possible.  The bunkers are pot bunkers in name only. Very shallow, incredibly easy to play a full shot from.  When you see them in the fairway they are out of play either short or long.  Poorly struck approaches may be repelled by the built up greens but once you are on the greens, unlike with No. 2, its point and shoot.  Very little internal movement.  If you keep the ball inside the hole you will make more than you miss.  When I was last there, we played it back but my recollection is that if you play it from the recommended guest tees most of the par 4's are in the 340-380 range.  All that said, I do enjoy it when I play there.  Other than No. 2, I would play 8 or 1 before 4.

[Jaeger Kovich]

Thanks for the info and pictures. It sure is an interesting marketing practice they have in place on the website; mention both architects, original course, new course, pot bunkers, water and picturesque scenes!

I'm gonna head down there to take advantage of the $222 deal for #2 sometime in the next few weeks, so I'm trying to figure out which of the courses to check out as well. ... loved #3 last time I was there, its short, but diverse and exciting.

[Adam Russell]

I've never seen a southern course where the bunkers only come in two sizes - pot or waste. Just by chance you would think there would be a medium one.

[CJ Carder]

I remember really enjoying #4 the one time I played it back in 2003, but of course, I did not have the "discerning eye of GCA" at that point.  Still, even to this day, I remain convinced that pure enjoyment is every bit as important as other factors when determining architectural merit.  If you're looking for other courses to play, I think #8 is fairly interesting and #5 is pretty solid as well.  The fact that #5 is actually AT the resort and probably doesn't include an upcharge likely puts it ahead in the "Best of 10" rating process.

Here are a couple of pictures of #4 from the Pinehurst Resort screensaver you can buy in the pro shop.  Enjoy!

Par 3 #4


Par 5 #13 with #14 green across the lake


Par 3 #14

[Jud_T]

CJ,

Have you played Pine needles, Mid-Pines, Tobacco Road or any of the private clubs in the area?

[CJ Carder]

CJ,

Have you played Pine needles, Mid-Pines, Tobacco Road or any of the private clubs in the area?

Jud,

I've played quite a few of the courses in the area -  #'s 2,4,5,6,8 at Pinehurst, Pine Needles, Mid Pines, The Pit, Tobacco Road, Mid South, National Golf Club, and CCNC's Dogwood.  This summer I'm also going to be hitting up both Forest Creeks and I'll probably throw in 1 other in the area on that trip as well.

CJ

[Jud_T]

I've only played Pine Needles and the Forest Creek courses, but I prefer all three to any of the "other" Pinehurst Resort courses....

[Mark Pritchett]

I think I read somewhere that #4 was characterized as "Tom Fazio's tribute to Rees Jones".

[Bill_McBride]

I think I read somewhere that #4 was characterized as "Tom Fazio's tribute to Rees Jones".

 

[Jaeger Kovich]

I think I read somewhere that #4 was characterized as "Tom Fazio's tribute to Rees Jones".

HAHAHA

So it seems like this course could be left off the must see list of Pinehurst. I'm still blown away by the way they have marketed this golf course, and what they think great golf is, especially from a place like Pinehurst.

[Tim Nugent]

I played #4 with Hickories and Gutta,  from the forward tees.  Clyde Johnson even had his own personnal set.  I couldn't hit them to save my life (they didn't come in extra long) but Craig Schriener had them down.  I do remember it was next to impossible to hold the greens, especially on the elevated greens.

Fazio's tribute to Rees - too funny.  Must have been in his Viginnian period.  I do recall them looking out of scale.

[Chris Buie]

I forgot to mention that 4 Course has another distinctive characteristic: "waste areas".  Make of it what you will.  About a third of the holes have this.

[CJ Carder]

I've only played Pine Needles and the Forest Creek courses, but I prefer all three to any of the "other" Pinehurst Resort courses....

Jud,

Even though I haven't played the Forest Creeks, I wouldn't disagree with you.  #2 has the reputation, but I honestly think an argument could be made (assuming you leave out the historical significance factor) that Pine Needles is the best course in the area.  Out of the courses I mentioned above, I'd probably rank #4 somewhere in the 6-8 range.  It's a good course, and if you haven't played it, it's probably worth a shot, but I'd put Pine Needles, #2, Mid Pines, CCNC, and Tobacco Road ahead of it with a good possibility of it being behind #8.

CJ

[Jud_T]

CJ,

Thanx...Pine Needles over #2? That seems a bit aggressive, regardless of history or current conditioning! I was at a wedding at CCNC and it looked very good.  I will definitely get to Mid-Pines and TR next time around (and hopefully the Dormie Club!)....

[CJ Carder]

CJ,

Thanx...Pine Needles over #2? That seems a bit aggressive, regardless of history or current conditioning! I was at a wedding at CCNC and it looked very good.  I will definitely get to Mid-Pines and TR next time around (and hopefully the Dormie Club!)....

Well, it's definitely not a given, but I do think one could make the argument.  Pine Needles has significantly more movement in the land than #2 does, which allows for more variety in the holes.  Pine Needles also hasn't been USGA'd with anywhere near as much as #2 has and, as such, likely retains more of its original character.  I love both courses, but I also wouldn't tell someone they're crazy if they mentioned they liked Pine Needles more than #2.

Mid Pines is sort of a mini-Pine Needles and, as I'm sure you've read, Tobacco Road is like nothing else around there.  CCNC to me was exactly what I'd expect out of the area - some solid creativity around the greens, interesting movement of holes, and firm enough conditioning to take advantage of it's strong points.  I'd love to get a chance to go back and play there again sometime.

CJ

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