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Jud_T

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Nicklaus on groove change
« on: January 20, 2010, 06:45:30 PM »
In the new Golfweek:

Q:  Other than rolling back the ball, if you were the czar of golf, what are the top couple of changes you'd make now that grooves have been changed?

A:  I don't think i have to make any.  You will find that the grooves will force the golf ball to become softer.  The driver is going to have to change because you're going to have to go to a softer ball.  I think everything is going to change because of grooves.  Which way and how far I don't know.

While I generally agree and think this is a great development, is he overstating the impact?
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus on groove change
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2010, 07:06:57 PM »
Jud,
For the most part, I don't think so. No one (even Jack) quite knows what to expect but it's a step in the right direction and will force these players into making better choices.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus on groove change
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2010, 07:07:22 PM »
I think he is overstating, because even the USGA is thinking they may have to limit loft on wedges in case the players choose to regain some spin with greater lofted wedges instead of changing balls.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus on groove change
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2010, 07:09:26 PM »
Garland,

I thought the groove change would in and of itself push them to lower lofted wedges because of the way the ball now comes off the face...?
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus on groove change
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2010, 07:13:59 PM »
Garland,

I thought the groove change would in and of itself push them to lower lofted wedges because of the way the ball now comes off the face...?

It now comes of the face with less spin using V grooves from the rough. Why would they go to lower lofted wedges?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus on groove change
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2010, 07:31:06 PM »
Jud,
If courses start to firm up then you will see more lower lofted wedge shots into greens where that tactic can be employed.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

JohnV

Re: Nicklaus on groove change
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2010, 07:35:50 PM »
Garland,

I thought the groove change would in and of itself push them to lower lofted wedges because of the way the ball now comes off the face...?

It now comes of the face with less spin using V grooves from the rough. Why would they go to lower lofted wedges?


As I understand it, the trajectory is higher with the new clubs so they are going to lower lofts.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus on groove change
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2010, 08:42:12 PM »
Garland,

I thought the groove change would in and of itself push them to lower lofted wedges because of the way the ball now comes off the face...?

It now comes of the face with less spin using V grooves from the rough. Why would they go to lower lofted wedges?


As I understand it, the trajectory is higher with the new clubs so they are going to lower lofts.

This only makes sense to me if you say that since they are using a softer ball that spins more, the trajectory is higher. How can V grooves make the ProV they have been using in the past fly higher?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus on groove change
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2010, 09:30:43 PM »
Apparently with the V-grooves the ball doesn't grab the face and run's up it more, and therefore comes off higher for a given loft....
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus on groove change
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2010, 02:46:26 PM »
Apparently with the V-grooves the ball doesn't grab the face and run's up it more, and therefore comes off higher for a given loft....

Do you have any reference where this is reported?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus on groove change
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2010, 02:51:49 PM »
Apparently with the V-grooves the ball doesn't grab the face and run's up it more, and therefore comes off higher for a given loft....

I have a hard time believing this as the ball is on the face of the club for a very very short time.

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus on groove change
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2010, 02:56:06 PM »
I read once where Nicklaus said he actually had (in his heyday) shallower than normal grooves on his irons, because he wanted to put less spin on the ball. Nicklaus preferred to rely on the height of his shots to land the ball softly on the green rather than bringing the ball in low with a lot of spin.   

Brent Hutto

Re: Nicklaus on groove change
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2010, 03:06:06 PM »
For a given loft and angle of approach, more spin and lower (initial) trajectory go together. Simply geometry. It's a fairly minor effect but can actually be computed to a fair accuracy under pretty general assumptions.

 But a few hundred rpm less spin is only going to result in like one degee higher angle of departure of ball from clubface. It's not like a V-grooved 55-degree wedge will fly as high as a square-grooved 60-degree one or anything like that.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus on groove change
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2010, 03:18:54 PM »
Brent,

I don't understand why you gave your explanation. USGA tests say U and V grooves give the same spin from the fairway. That would say that your explanation doesn't apply. So why change lofts?

Also, I guess I missed the spin concepts in my geometry classes. How is spin geometry?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus on groove change
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2010, 03:21:24 PM »
There was something in a recent Golf World panel discussion about this impact and how guys will probably drop their 64 degree wedges as a result....
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Brent Hutto

Re: Nicklaus on groove change
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2010, 03:24:07 PM »
I'm not saying anything about how much a ball will or won't spin from this or that grooves from a given lie. It's just that however you end up getting 3,200rpm off one 55-degree wedge shot and 3,800rpm off another 55-degree wedge shot the geometry dictates that the ball spinning faster will depart the clubface at a lower angle than the ball spinning slower (for constant clubface loft and angle of approach).

That's simple and, frankly, not a big enough effect to be particularly interesting. The interesting complicated question is just how much a ball is going to spin in any given situation. There's no simple geometric relationship that answer that question.

Jack_Marr

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus on groove change
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2010, 06:23:42 PM »
There's a chance that the ball will come off the club at a different angle if the ball does not grip on the clubface as much. However, pressure is inversely proportional to air speed. Effectively, the more back spin on a ball, the faster the air moves across the top of it, and the slower it moves across the bottom of it, so the pressure differential (low at the top, high at the bottom) should make the ball rise more easily. Hitting into the wind will exaggerate this effect further.

Could be other factors at play too, though.
John Marr(inan)

Jim Sweeney

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Re: Nicklaus on groove change
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2010, 07:14:10 PM »
Jack- are you a pilot or a physicist?

Garland, it was in one of the golf rags from December that I saw this explanation: with V-grooves, or grooves that produce the same spin as V-grooves, the ball will run up the face more than with sharp edged square grooves, thus the intial trajectory will be higher even though there is less spin.

That said, in one of the mags Dave Pelz suggested that we should all add a 64 degree wedge, since the ball will spin less and the added loft will give us a higher initial trajectory.

Both can be right, since much of spin generation depends on clubhead speed. Even on little shots from near the green, the better player generates more clubhead speed than the average player, Thus, with v-grooves, the better player would hit higer shots with a less lofted club than would the poorer player with the same club. It follows, then, that the poorer player might benefit form using more lofter wedges.

Remember that in the balata, v-groove era, alost nobody used a club with more that 56 degrees of loft. Seve Ballesteros railed against 60 degree wedges, saying that noone should need more than 56.


"Hope and fear, hope and Fear, that's what people see when they play golf. Not me. I only see happiness."

" Two things I beleive in: good shoes and a good car. Alligator shoes and a Cadillac."

Moe Norman

Alex Miller

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Re: Nicklaus on groove change
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2010, 07:32:00 PM »
Everyone here  understands that the difference in trajectory of the V grooves compared to the square ones is from the rough, right?

From the fairway, since there is less of a difference in spin produced and contact between the two types of grooves, they essentially produce the same ball flight. This is due to less grass being between club and ball at contact (i.e. fairways are cut short).

So this need to tinker with clubs and balls is negated if players find the fairway more. If they drive the ball more accurately, they are able to maintain control over their trajectories better.

The impact of these new grooves will not be seen just in the quality of approaches from the rough, but also in what clubs players choose off of the tee in order to hit the fairway, or at least that's the idea...

RSLivingston_III

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Re: Nicklaus on groove change
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2010, 09:03:24 PM »
So what are the chances the guys are going to relearn the art of using the leading edge to impart varies types of spin on the ball? And that to accomodate it the manufacturers will sharpen up those big old bullnoses on them now?
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

Mike Wagner

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Re: Nicklaus on groove change
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2010, 12:13:58 AM »
Most of the guys I've talked to on tour are tweaking their wedges to slightly lower lofts.  I haven't heard anything other than that, and they aren't quite sure what to make of it just yet.  It will be much more apparent as they play harder courses and obviously after Augusta and the US Open. 


Jason Connor

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Re: Nicklaus on groove change
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2010, 08:22:03 AM »
I thought the groove change would in and of itself push them to lower lofted wedges because of the way the ball now comes off the face...?

Do you have any reference where this is reported?

The Phil Mickelson interview in Golf World said he expected players to start using less lofted wedges, that he be surprised if they went more lofted.  He described the face not gripping the ball as much and "moving up the face" of the wedge.  This leads to the ball coming off at a higher trajectory.
We discovered that in good company there is no such thing as a bad golf course.  - James Dodson

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus on groove change
« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2010, 08:09:07 AM »
from the new Golfweek:

"With the new grooves, balls will migrate up the face and pop higher into the air.  So, for touring pros, a 60-degree wedge in 2010 might provide a higher trajectory than a 64-degree wedge in 2009."

"The high shot and loss of spin means less control for Tour players.  Pelz said the runout on greenside chips and pitches will be 50 percent greater this year, particularly on firm, fast greens."
« Last Edit: January 23, 2010, 08:13:46 AM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Kalen Braley

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Re: Nicklaus on groove change
« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2010, 11:31:57 AM »
from the new Golfweek:

"With the new grooves, balls will migrate up the face and pop higher into the air.  So, for touring pros, a 60-degree wedge in 2010 might provide a higher trajectory than a 64-degree wedge in 2009."

"The high shot and loss of spin means less control for Tour players.  Pelz said the runout on greenside chips and pitches will be 50 percent greater this year, particularly on firm, fast greens."

I bet the USGA boys are smacking thier lips at how tough Pebble will be with those teeny greens and especially if Monterey has a dry spring......

Jud_T

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Re: Nicklaus on groove change
« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2010, 11:43:17 AM »
I also hope The Old Course has a very dry summer prior to the open...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

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