[Patrick_Mucci]

Gary Nelson,

In what way were they deemed to be unfair ?

[Gary_Nelson]

The greens (and some fairways) were deemed unfair because they weren't receptive to shots that were "reasonably well hit".  The 11th green is crowned and my friend's high & soft 8-iron shot bounced into a bunker (was he ever pissed).  The shot didn't hold the green because he hit the back half of the green (angled away from us)instead of the front half (angled toward the tee).

The 13th (??) fairway is quite wide but tilted right and several tee shots hit the fairway (roughly in the middle) then were subsequently bounced into the trees.  

Just a couple examples.

High Pointe was at the end of the weekend.  I hoped the guys would be "practiced up" and ready for it.  Perhaps too much beer and chicken wings did us in.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Gary Nelson,

Were the greens and fairways unusually firm ?

What kind of ball was your friend with the 8 iron hitting ?
Sometimes the trade off on distance is a ball that doesn't hold greens very well.

Lastly, having recently hit the back of the 8th green at GCGC and ending up in a deep bunker on my way to a triple bogey,
I was annoyed at myself for not playing to the front or at the most, the middle of the green, when I know that hitting to the back of the green invarialbly leads to going long which usually leads to disastrous results.

Do you think it was the architecture or the golfers fault ?

[Gary_Nelson]

Patrick Mucci,

The architecture of the course is not the problem.  In my opinion, it was the combination of high handicap golfers and their lack of knowledge about how to play the holes.   "Cheat sheets" on the golf carts would have at provided some local knowledge.  The guys wouldn't have been so mad if they were told up front not to hit to the right half of the 13th fairway or else they'll end up in the woods.  

The greens and fairways were pretty firm.  However, the 8 iron my friend hit on the 11th hole was a towering shot that would have held most greens.  He plays Strata golf balls so that shouldn't have been part of the problem.

If you'll allow me to digress a bit... I think that the nuances of golf design are lost on most golfers.  The charm and intrigue of a golfer getting tricked by the architect is tough to appreciate when you don't play the course over and over.   I was aware what was being done to me at High Pointe when I hit a shot to the wrong spot (fairway, green, etc).  I was grumbling to myself throughout the round that Mr. Doak was kicking my butt and was secretly plotting my revenge when I play the course again.  My friends, however, were just pissed about the "bad bounces" all over the course and had no idea that a fairway 60 yards wide or a seemingly "large" green was just luring them into a false sense of security.  

Handouts in the pro-shop, cheat sheets on the golf carts, signs near the tees... all might help "educate" the masses about why this type of course is so good.  On the other hand, keeping the design intent "secret" could be part of the charm for us "in the know" to figure out as we play the course several times.

I hope I haven't gone too far off the subject of this thread.  I'm a newbie, please be kind.

Gary

[Patrick_Mucci]

Gary,

If someone does all the work for your friends, PRINTS the prefered strategy for every hole on a cheat sheet,
what will they learn through the playing experience ?

How will they learn to deal with the challenges that the next course presents ?

Have we gotten to a point in golf where golfers demand to be informed of every nuance a course possesses, without any desire to figure it out for themselves ?

I know a lot of high handicappers that are GOLFERS,
they understand the game, strategy and course management, they just don't possess the physical skill or time to become low handicaps.  But, they enjoy the CHALLENGE of the GAME.

Tell your friends to stop being spoiled, to get mentally tough on the golf course, start developing a sense of course management and to stop whining about the unknown, bad breaks and the challenge of the game.    
You need to seriously abuse your golfing friends.

There I was, sailing along smoothly, qualifying for the Travis with ease, when my brain temporarily stopped working,
I overclubbed, and paid the consequences, bitter consequences, what was I thinking of ?  

I certainly wasn't blaming the architect who achieved his goal through a combination of his great design and my blatant STUPIDITY.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

8 iron to the back of the green on #2 GCGC, KAABOING into the back bunker--triple bogie!? Was it the archecture or the golfer?

It was the "ideal maintenance meld" my friend!!!!

Do I have to teach you the finer points of that too??

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

It was # 8, I hit a really good drive, was 141 center, 146 pin, slightly downwind, and tried to get cute with a choked down
eight iron.

As you know, once a ball lands on the mid ridge or further back on that green, it's gone, into that cavernous bunker, where I left two bunker shots trying to grease it up close.

DUMB... is the only way to describe it.

[TEPaul]

Oh the 8th!? No matter, the "ideal maintenance meld" is consistent throughout the course and had I been your caddie I would have given you the exact yardage to the back edge so your approach would not have gone anywhere near that far! I likely would have ripped that 8 iron right out of your hand and had you land a fuller shot on the front so it would have a little something on it!!

But you overclub, get cute (greedy I should say), hit it too good and do something that dumb with Travis qualifying in the bag??

You dumb cluck!! I hate mental errors worse than shanks and again had I been your caddie I would have fired you before I put the pin back in the cup on #8!!!!

Next thing I know you'll be trying to fly it at the back pin from the right side of the fairway on Riviera's #10. Even if I'm not caddying for you if you ever even think about trying something like that I'm coming over and smacking you before you can take a single waggle!!

There's absolutely nothing worse to me in tournament golf than a really well struck shot combined with the mental error of misclubbing--it makes me sick!!

[Ed Oden]

I was going to start a new thread on this subject.  But, of course, Mr. Mucci beat me to it by almost a decade.  So I thought I'd just add a few thoughts to this discussion.

First, it seems to me that angled greens require width to work.  Only wide fairways offer enough variance in potential angles of approach to properly emphasize the preferred tack to a diagonal green.  Maybe lack of space is one reason why you don't see more of them. 

Second, angled greens seem to work particularly well on half par holes.  The strategic decision of whether to go for it or lay up to the best angle to attack the green is central to the effectiveness of the design.  And that decision comes into play most often on short par 4s and 5s and on long par 4s where playing the hole as a 3 shotter is a viable option.

Finally, I think its worthy of note that angled greens are an essential component of arguably the most influential par 3 design (the redan) and arguably the most influential par 4 design (the road hole).

Ed

[Sean_A]

While I enjoy angled greens I am hesitant to label them the best sort of greens.  The best sort of greens are a varied set.  We need all types to keep the game interesting and to avoid repetition.  Same is true of hazards, fairway shaping, elevation change etc etc. 

BTW Gary's reply #28 is an excellent post.

Ciao

[Jason Topp]

As a general matter I would answer the original question no.  I will write more about it when I have time but Nicklaus makes a ton of these.  I find them either very difficult or very boring depending on the size of the particular green. 

[Mike Policano]

As always, Pat makes you think.  I have noticed that used well, angled greens can make short 3's, 4's and 5's very strategic.  Pat mentions 13 at Pine Tree.  This hole is a short par 3 130-160 yards with a very well bunkered angled green that is very narrow and shaped somewhat like 12 at Augusta.  Throw in the ever present wind and there is enough challenge for anyone.

He also mentioned 14 at Pine Tree.  A short 4 playing 340-380 which has another well-bunkered angled green and water down the left protecting the best angle into the green.  The strategy is to put the ball on the extreme left side of the fairway while avoiding the water.  Also, you have to lay back a bit or you can drive right through the angle in.  The green lacks depth and falls off front and back.  One of the best holes on the course.

Finally, 3 East at Ridgewood is a 520-560 par 5, Tillinghast angled the three tiered greens with bunkers lining the entire length of the green left and right.  The angle is so good that anyone taking the shortest route to the green has the worst angle.  The long route down the left side gives the best angle.  In the Barclay's two years ago, the hole did not yield any eagles.

[Mike_Young]

Pat,
I think in the majority of instances that they are some of the best greens...but I think the slope with in the angled green has much to do with the overall strategy of the "angle AND would you agree that you can have "angled" greens which are round, square or other various shapes...by this I mean the main surface may be set up with a spine at a strategic angle but the overall putting surface may be rectangular and not viewed as angular to the line of play?  I think that type of green is IMHO some of the best greens I have seen....

[JESII]

Most disturbing is that sometime between May 2002 and today somebody taught Pat how to use BOLD COLORS[/color] in his responses...



Good find Ed...interesting thread and topic.

[David_Tepper]

The angled green on #5 at Royal Dornoch creates a lot of challenge on a short par-4. Kyle Phillips does a nice analysis of the hole in the book Scottish Golf Links. 

The green is very deep and is angled to the right. There is a sharp fall-off to the right of the green. When the pin is in the back portion of the green, you really want to keep you tee shot down the left side of the fairway, but that is not easy, as the fairway slopes a bit to the right.   

[Jason Topp]

How many of the courses held out to have terrific greens feature a steady dose of angled greens? 

[Anthony Gray]

  Very good topic Pat.Playing Lookout Mountain
(Raynor) is the most notable example for me. The greens are smaller than say NGLA, so the misses are more frequent and the up and downs are very difficult. I have very liitle chance of a par if I miss one of those greens. I can never score on that course.

  Anthony

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