Most Influentual Par 5s?

[Kevin Pallier]

I would have thought more holes from GB&I would have been mentioned - like #3 Prestwick (Cardinal) and # 14 TOC with the cross bunkering and #14 at Royal St. George's with the multiple hazards ?

[Greg Tallman]

Geez Tom, I thought you provided a definitive answer with factual support... I mean if every architect surveyed noted those holes as INLFUENCING their work... maybe its just me 

[Jaeger Kovich]

VK: BPB #4 and the Hells Half-Acre hole at PV are essentially the same thing!... Remember Tilly, who was the main force behind the design of that hole at PV, believe that no hole should be reachable in 2 because he couldn't design a green to accommodate 2 ideal shots. The forced carry / split fairway / heroic nature is the same idea in both, only one hole has the "hells 1/2 acre bunker" and BPB has the "glacial bunker".

... I do think the "great hazard" and "double dog leg" Tilly template has to be in the top 5 for most influential par-5's.... but it must also be remembered that a lot of the best/most famous ones all come from the same designer (tilly) so is it really that influential... and i guess a big nod need to go to TOC version as well.


What about the "Hogan's Alley" hole at Carnoustie? Should this par-5 be in the mix as well?

[jim_lewis]

This thread provides an opportunity for me to repeat an argument that I have posted a few times over the years. It is my belief that Pebble Beach #18 has had a major, and unfortunate, inluence on golf course design for the past several decades. I don't know who is most responsible, architects or owners/developers. It seems to me that there are way too many examples of finishing holes on modern courses which are wrapped around a lake. Some are par 4's (Doral Blue and Bay Hill come to mind) and many are par 5's.(TPC Sugarloaf, Atlanta CC, and Old North State are examples.)  I could name many, but most here can think of their own list.  Unfortunately, not only do those holes lack imagination, they probably result in less than the ideal routing and design of the last hole. Pebble 18 gets my vote as most influential and most copied......too bad.

Jim

[Ed Oden]

Now if the question was "what par 5 has been the most influential on subsequent design?  I would line up with the ANGC #13 guys.  Followed by #18 PB, #15 ANGC and #7 PV.  #8 CD is a primer on how to do a great par 5 without fwy bunkers, OB, or water hazards.  I'm not even sure any greenside bunkering is necessary as the slope is enough to occupy ones thoughts.

Tim Nugent, that is exactly the question I was intending to ask.  There have been some great responses, however, so I am fine with any direction this thread may take. 

Jim Lewis, yours is an interesting take.  When I originally posed the question, I was only thinking about which par 5s have most influenced the design of other par 5s.  But I can certainly see how they could influence holes of different par as well.  Do any of the architects on the board have an opinion on whether Jim is right about the influence of #18 at PB if the question is extended to include its effect on holes of lesser par?

Ed

[V. Kmetz]

Jaeger (and all)

JK - My primary follow-up on your remarks is that the substantially greater distance of PV7 added to the fact that its green is encased in sand make it a better representative of a Tilly (You're not supposed to reach this in two) aesthetic than BpB4.  I'm not denying the parallels you cite in the least, just that for me BpB4 is the more cunning and comprehensive of the two. precisely because of its reachable distance balanced against the virtues of a diagonal hazard.  PV7's distance and perpindicular carry DO put it all on the second shot...for survival.  At BpB4, the second shot is still most important, but it has the virtue of another choice...reaching the green, while the diagonal snake of second shot landings allows for the occasional scrape that would be murdered at PV7.

All - Thinking of PV in this discussion, and given the frequent citations of AN13 and PB18 as significant in style of design...wouldn't then PV13 need to be examined for influence...Wasn't that one of the first holes to feature the "bite off as much as you dare" aspect of a long hole with hazard hugging the left.  when I first got interested in GCA, I believe I remember a lot of early readings extolling that hole's virtues.

Cheers

VK

[Tom MacWood]

I thought #17 at TOC was a par five...isn't it a better when thougt of as a par five?

You're right, the Road Hole has been a par-5 for most of its life.

[Phil_the_Author]

Jaeger,

You are incorrect when you state, "Remember Tilly, who was the main force behind the design of that hole at PV, believe that no hole should be reachable in 2 because he couldn't design a green to accommodate 2 ideal shots..."

Tilly designed a number of very good par-5's that not only could be reached in two shots but that he designed the green to both reward the successful second shot and severely punish the unsuccessful one. Those par-5's were designed to be highly risk/rewardable for the outstanding player while allowing the average-to-good player to make par with three good swings.

A very good example of this is the 12th hole on Winged Foot West. It was originally 487 yards and both Bobby Jones & Al Espinosa went for it in two shots during their playoff for the 1929 US Open, as did many other players during the event as well.

[Tom MacWood]

In a 1906 poll of the top amateurs and professionals in the UK the best three-shot holes came out to be the 5th, 14th, 17th at St. Andrews and the 14th at Sandwich.

[Jud_T]

I thought #17 at TOC was a par five...isn't it a better when thougt of as a par five?

You're right, the Road Hole has been a par-5 for most of its life.

It's still a par 5 for most of us....

[Anthony Gray]

  From a stategic point of view I still feel it is 14 at TOC. The challenge of crossing the hazard or laying up is used on many par 5s today.

  Anthony

[ChipOat]

I don't "get" the question because I can't see so much evidence of "influence" of specific holes.

Other than MacRaynor courses and Old Macdonald, how many real Redan holes are out there except for Tilly's #2 at Somerset Hills?  How many real Road Hole green complexes exist besides TOC and MacRaynor?

I can't think of another hole like #7 at Pine Valley that I've ever played (just the shot requirements - forget about the PV "look").

How many other D.A. holes like #10 at PV have ever been built?  Or butt-pucker island greens a la #17 at TPC?

I can see the influence of certain courses in terms of maintenance meld, or trees, or removal of trees or green speeds.  I can see the influence of different architects in terms of bunker appearance (Mackenzie, Coore/Crenshaw), or railroad ties (Dye) or runway tee boxes (RTJ, Sr.) or strategic-versus-penal (Hugh Wilson) or saucer greens (Ross).

I guess #18 at Pebble is influential if you have 350 yards of spectacular coast line to work with in the first place.  Or #16 at CPC if you have that special peninsula of land as part of the site.  How often does that happen?

I just don't see individual holes as being all that influential.  If they were, you'd have many more copies than I think are out there.

[Carl Johnson]

I don't "get" the question because I can't see so much evidence of "influence" of specific holes.

Other than MacRaynor courses and Old Macdonald, how many real Redan holes are out there except for Tilly's #2 at Somerset Hills?  How many real Road Hole green complexes exist besides TOC and MacRaynor? . . .

I just don't see individual holes as being all that influential.  If they were, you'd have many more copies than I think are out there.

I do "get" the question.  To my mind, there's a difference between a hole that "influences" the design of other holes without "copying" them and actual "copies."  For example, what's a "real Road Hole green complex"?  One that copies it more or less exactly?  Maybe there are few of those, but likely many more that have been influenced by it.  Without taxing my brain to try to remember them particularly, in my experience I've found any number of 3's that seemed to me to have been influenced if not by the original Redan at N. Berwick, by other 3s that were, even though they're clearly not copies.

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