Most Influentual Par 5s?

[Ed Oden]

I suggested on another thread that the redan and the road hole are, respectively, arguably the most influential par 3 and 4 designs.  I have no idea whether that is true or not (as with most of my posts, I don't have the foggiest idea of what I am talking about, so there is no need to point out the fallacy of my suggestion).  Regardless, it begs the question, what is the most influential par 5 design?  Perhaps #14 at TOC? 

Ed

[Ben Sims]

Ed,

I'd argue, that based upon 1) how many Masters have been won by the Nicklaus, Palmer, Player trio 2) how many courses have been designed in the last 25 years with those three names on them and 3) how many now 35-60 year-old GCA's grew up seeing those two holes on TV more than any other in the 60's and 70's; the 13th and 15th holes at Augusta National are the most influential par 5's in golf. 

They set the "perceptual standard of risk reward" for the majority of golfers in the US.  But in my opinion, sometimes a par 5 needs to be a par 5.  That's why I think more archies should pay attention to the 8th and 16th at Crystal Downs.

[Jimmy Chandler]

Ben --

My first though in answer to Ed's question was Augusta 13 & 15, but then I thought a little more.  Name a hole on another course that's like either hole, especially 13.  I can't -- not that I claim to be an expert.  These are certainly two of the most famous par 5s, along with Pebble's 18th, but have they been influential?

[Tom_Doak]

Absolutely, those two are the most influential par-5 holes.  They established in American golfers' minds the idea that all par-5 holes should be reachable in two for very good players.  Before that, "three-shot holes" were accepted to play like they were named.  In fact, when I did that long article in 1982 about "untouchable" par-5 holes for GOLF Magazine, I interviewed a bunch of architects from the ASGCA, and several of them said point-blank that every par-5 ought to be reachable in two, citing Augusta as their reference.

Robert Trent Jones built hundreds of par-5 holes with a pond in front of, or to the side of the green.  Spyglass Hill has 2 or 3 of them.

[JC Jones]

I think a good question would be, what SHOULD be the most influential par 5's in golf?

[Cliff Hamm]

Tom...I might argue the opposite for championship golf and go with the 17th at Baltusrol.  I believe the first to play over 600 yards in a major and now it seems every major strives to have a par 5 barely reachable by anyone but the longest hitter.

[Ben Sims]

Tom...I might argue the opposite for championship golf and go with the 17th at Baltusrol.  I believe the first to play over 600 yards in a major and now it seems every major strives to have a par 5 barely reachable by anyone but the longest hitter.

Cliff,

I still think the proof in the pudding over how the public, and hence many GCA's view par 5's is in the most famous moment in the history of the hole you chose.  John Daly reaching it with a 1 iron second shot in 1993 is the hole's defining moment.  Not some amazing 80-yard wedge for eagle or tap-in birdie, but reaching the hole in two was what made it more famous. 

[Emil Weber]

What about the 17th at Muirfield? 

[Cliff Hamm]

Tom...I might argue the opposite for championship golf and go with the 17th at Baltusrol.  I believe the first to play over 600 yards in a major and now it seems every major strives to have a par 5 barely reachable by anyone but the longest hitter.

Cliff,

I still think the proof in the pudding over how the public, and hence many GCA's view par 5's is in the most famous moment in the history of the hole you chose.  John Daly reaching it with a 1 iron second shot in 1993 is the hole's defining moment.  Not some amazing 80-yard wedge for eagle or tap-in birdie, but reaching the hole in two was what made it more famous. 

Ben...totally agree.  My point being that the 17th at Baltusrol is not meant to be reached by 99% of the field.  This is different then the two par 5's mentioned at Augusta.  I do think that this has led to many major set ups attempting to have a par 5 over 600 that only a few can reach.  Hence the influence of the 17th.

[Anthony Gray]

 14 at TOC?  Teplate for The Long at NGLA. Many of todays par 5s have bunkers 40-80 yards infront of the green challeging the heroic shot or forcing a lay-up.

  Anthony

[Tom_Doak]

Anthony:

You could make the case that the 14th at St. Andrews is the precedent for the "true three-shot holes" like the 17th at Baltusrol, 7th at Pine Valley, etc., with Hell bunker in place of what Tillie called the Sahara.

Cliff:

Are you from Jersey?

I don't see how the 17th at Baltusrol, influencing the ONE hole per course that is seldom reachable in two, could be MORE influential than the holes at Augusta which influence the other THREE par-5's on every course that are designed to be reachable.

[Tim Nugent]

The most influential par 5 design?
While some excellent examples by way of individual holes has been highlghted, they seem to be either of the risk/reward design or the execute 3 good shots design.  Those that favor the excitement of the game seem to favor the risk/reward design (put me in that camp) but I believe they should be balanced by those from the 3 shot category. 

Now if the question was "what par 5 has been the most influential on subsequent design?  I would line up with the ANGC #13 guys.  Followed by #18 PB, #15 ANGC and #7 PV.  #8 CD is a primer on how to do a great par 5 without fwy bunkers, OB, or water hazards.  I'm not even sure any greenside bunkering is necessary as the slope is enough to occupy ones thoughts.

[JESII]

I thought #17 at TOC was a par five...isn't it a better when thougt of as a par five?

[Cliff Hamm]

Cliff:

Are you from Jersey?

I don't see how the 17th at Baltusrol, influencing the ONE hole per course that is seldom reachable in two, could be MORE influential than the holes at Augusta which influence the other THREE par-5's on every course that are designed to be reachable.

No...I live in RI.  In an effort of full disclosure though I did grow up in NJ and caddied at Baltusrol in the '60's.  I have no biases though

Perhaps my wording was not the best.  I would not argue that the holes at Augusta have had greater influence.  That is absolutely the case.  My only point was that for major championship setups the 17th at Baltusrol has had significant influence.  Fair enough?

[Sam Morrow]

What about 18 at Pebble, that is the first one that came to my mind.

[V. Kmetz]

All,

I would have to say the 14th of the Old Course and the 7th at Pine Valley, because of their notable second shot hazards.

I say this because these are two vintage "5s" that have always instructed that after any type of drives, the most important shot is still the second...whether or not you are going for the green in two.  "Hell" and "Hell's Half-Acre" rightfully dominate play on both these holes from the tee, which as an aesthetic seems appropriate to a long hole of over 475 yards.  Augusta National's 13 and 15 have this value as well, it's just that the hazard is pushed closer to the green...and is irrecoverable water.  But the other two came first I suppose, so they deserve a more original influence tag

In contrasts I think this one of the deficiencies of Pebble's 18th in measuring a Par 5; whether you're playing it or watching the pros on it - the hole is mostly on the tee shot.  After that an average player can limp near the green in three and there's nothing less exciting about watching the AT&T than watching them lay up to 85 yards in two.

If I'm at all right about the worth of a par 5 being invested in its second shot virtues then TOC #14 and PV #7 are the vintage choices for influence.

And while I think it hasn't influenced enough, the finest par 5 in America is Bethpage Black #4.  If that hole was the 18th, I think it would be one of the more celebrated holes in GCA.  I can't think of a flaw or an unfair demand it makes..with the exception being that is an uphill walk, a little tough for the infirm and/or senior crowd.

Cheers

VK

[Anthony Gray]

What about 18 at Pebble, that is the first one that came to my mind.

  I believe that the influence of PB 18 is when an architect has an opputunity to place a water hazard down one side of a par 4/5 they may be inclined to do so.

  Anthony

[Alex Miller]

What about 18 at Pebble, that is the first one that came to my mind.

Also, remember the 18th at Pebble was originally a par 4.

In many ways 18 at Pebble is like 13 at Augusta National. Rae's creek is a hazard down the entire left side of that  hole until you cross it to get to the green. I love Pebble's 18th, but I think it's more influential as a finisher than as a par 5.

[Jud_T]

How much of Augusta's prominence in this thread is due to this?:

http://pga-tour.suite101.com/article.cfm/gene_sarazen_and_the_masters

[Tim Nugent]

V. You make the case for my 2nd group, the solid 3 shotters vs the risk-reward possible 2-shotters (that TD defended so aptly).  I listed #7 PV for the reasons you stated, which is a derivative of #14 TOC as is #4 BPB, Baltisrol, 5 Farms (BCC),#3 & 8 the Dunes Club, or a verticle hazard like #16 Southport & Ainsdale, etc.

Therefore, it can be seen that many architects will strive to get a mix of the 2 groups into their designs.  Both have merit and variety is the spice of life.

It is interesting that #18PB is now more of a 2-shot risk-reward hole rather than the 3-shotter it used to be.  As such, it makes for a great finishing hole.  As a 3-shotter, I think not.  So one has to question if it isn't more influential now than it was then.  Plus, as a 4/5 what purpose do the fairway bunkers serve? To keep slicers out of an expensive rear yard?

Recently, I had a short bending left along a pond, par 5 to remodel as it needed a new green.  I could have left the green where it was.  With a bunker short right - PB #18.  But I decided to flip it over to the otherside of the narrow pond hence #13 ANGC.  As you can see, both are very influential.

Also just built a 585 yd hole that incorporated an old landfill. The 40' 3:1 slope was too steep to hold a ball, couldn't be cut into due to gtrash and was180-220 yds off the back tee.  My solution was a large cross bunk ala #4 BPB.  Hence the influence from those types of holes are still prevalent. However, I have found that average golfers are not particulary fond of HHA or cross bunkers and it can be difficult getting all the tees in the proper places as to not overly penalize ant one segment.

[Jerry Kluger]

I would suggest that the 13th at the Dunes in Myrtle Beach has been very influential in golf course design.  The risk reward features of the hole have been well recognized for many years - perhaps more than 50, and certainly have been used in the design of other par 5s.

The 13th and 15th at ANGC are certainly influential in demonstrating strategic decisions faced by all levels of golfers but much of that strategy is due to the topography which to me, minimizes their influence on other designs.  Would they have nearly the influence if the property was flat - I would say no.  Another question is whether the conditioning of the holes is perhaps more influential than the design - there are few greens that are as firm and as fast as those two and they are certainly integral to the quality of the design.

[Tim Nugent]

Jerry, I think the design principals of #13 hold up pretty good on flat ground.  Basically, it boils down to getting close to an inside hazard to achieve the shortest route to the green , albeit carrying the frontal/side hazard without going into the rear hazard.  If you elect to resist this route and layup, you are still forced to negociate the same setup.  Granted, the strong cross-slope scares many into playing further right and into the trees out of fear of sliding down into the creek.

Since an architect is never sure of what kind of conditioning he's going to get, that really can't factor too much into the equation.

[Jerry Kluger]

Tim: The green is firm, fast and sloped - that to me is the greatest influence on the golfer.  But isn't that the overall characteristic of the course and that is more influential than the design of a couple of holes. Soften, flatten and slow the greens and ANGC loses much of its character.  Flatten the course and it also loses a great deal.  Don't interpret this to mean that I don't think that ANGC is a brilliant design - it certainly is, however, much of its brilliance is due to the topography, the routing and the conditioning.

[Jordan Wall]

Are Pebble's 18th and Augusta's 13th not the epitome of influence among par-5's?

Every par-5 hole should strive to be as good as those holes.

Despite an abundance of length on either hole, they still provide ample oppourtunity for a bogey or more, as evidenced by tournament play.

Without having seeing it personally, I would think the thirteenth green at Augusta exemplifies what a green for a short par-5 should be like.  Tiger made bogey after being on in two and there have been many missed putts on the green that have caused big swings at the Masters - consequently the green also rewards great second shots and great putting.

The use of angles on both hole is tremendous, particularly at Augusta.

And, is there a better tee shot in golf than the eighteenth at Pebble?

What about any shot under 100 yards to the thirteenth at Augusta!?  How many times do tour pros really have to worry about hitting into a hazard from such a short distance.  At the same time, the shotisn't so hard that an average player shouldn't be able to pull it off.

These two holes are the most influential par-5's in golf, in my opinion.

My thoughts might change upon a visit to Europe, or perhaps I might add one more to this list at least.

Cheers,
Jordan

[Phil Benedict]

I don't know if influential is the right word but the 16th at Firestone made a big impression on me back in the 60's because it seemed so long in those days.  They called it the monster, didn't they?  625-yard par 5's were pretty rare and this one was on TV every year for the American Golf Classic or whatever other event was played at Firestone back then.  There were other 600-yard holes but they weren't used for televised events.

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