Seminole

[JC Jones]

I'm curious if any of the other top courses in the world are as open and intimate as Seminole in the sense you can see a lot of the entire property from a lot of different spots around the course?

Im curious to know the brand of the cheese spread.

I thought she said it was some brand of Wisconsin cheddar, no?

Because that narrows it down.  The only thing that might help is apparently its the same brand they've been serving there since the club opened.  So, we need to find the brand that has been around, at least, since 1929.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I'm curious if any of the other top courses in the world are as open and intimate as Seminole in the sense you can see a lot of the entire property from a lot of different spots around the course?

Shinnecock, NGLA, Oakmont, TOC, Maidstone ?, GCGC.

[Bob_Huntley]

Muirfield.

Bob

[Michael Taylor]

Does anybody have any pictures of Seminole? Also why is it they don't allow photos to be taken?

Pup

[Patrick_Mucci]

Michael Taylor,

I've heard that Seminole doesn't permit taking photographs, but, I've only heard that on this site.

It's such a stunning golf course so I can't imagine why anyone would object to the taking of photos, unless it slowed down play.

Perhaps that idiot-savant, the effusive TEPaul can enlighten us.

[Paul Jones]

I got to play this past week with a member and I asked if I could take pictures. He told me that it was against club policy.  The caddie told me that sometimes people will take a quick picture around 13 or 14 if no one is around.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

I got to play this past week with a member and I asked if I could take pictures. He told me that it was against club policy.  The caddie told me that sometimes people will take a quick picture around 13 or 14 if no one is around.

JC and I were told the same when we played last month. Our caddy quipped "that's why they sell a book in the pro shop." I'll post the few I snuck in when I get them from my dad.

[Dean Stokes]

number 5.

[Eric Smith]

number 6

[Michael Taylor]

Well it seems like a stupid policy to me. I don't understand why they wouldn't want photos taken, except for pace of play reasons.

Number 6 looks wonderful.. I think that's the switchback hole Hogan or someone said is their favorite in golf (?).

Pup

[Patrick_Mucci]

Eric,

Those are nice photos.

You can see how balls can back off the green, especially at # 5, and be fed down into those concave deep bunkers, where your ball comes to rest far, far from where it was on the green.

[JESII]

Very deceptive...

[Dean Stokes]

number 12 from the tee. A great short par 4 that is often in to the wind.

[JMEvensky]

Well it seems like a stupid policy to me. I don't understand why they wouldn't want photos taken, except for pace of play reasons.

Maybe because it's a private club that's not interested in non-members' opinions.

[Ryan Farrow]

Well it seems like a stupid policy to me. I don't understand why they wouldn't want photos taken, except for pace of play reasons.

Maybe because it's a private club that's not interested in non-members' opinions.

Just look at Dean's photos....... Beer goggles anyone?

[JC Jones]

Ryan,

Since you are an architect, I'm really curious to see why, architecturally, you don't care for Seminole.  Thus far you have stated that it was boring, didn't have enough views of the ocean and now, is aesthetically unpleasing.  None of these statements, however, has any relevance to the architecture.

[Ryan Farrow]

JC,

I already explained my opinion of Seminole. And furthermore all of those things you mentioned have a lot to do with architecture. Views, Aesthetics, being fun to play....... Do you think an architect has no control over these things?

I will explain why I think Seminole is not Aesthetically pleasing. 1. In the winter, when most people see/play the course, it is brown. And not 100 % brown, but spotty Brown. If you look in the Southern Dunes thread, I have some photos of a brown course, that I think looks good. 2. Most of the holes at Seminole are on a flat, I like golf holes with movement, they look a lot better  bunkers set into hillsides look more natural than bunkers built on flat ground. 3. The lakes, and the lake edges are just stale and un-natural looking, and there are a lot of them. 4. The exposed sand just does not look good, does not look natural or Dunes-ey.  Much of it has been over-grown with Bermuda and there is little native vegetation. I will tell you that #3 did look good, as there were clusters of some pretty great trees, I also like #6 a lot as the hole has some great movement and sets into the dune perfectly.

Like I said before, I think its a good course, its just not for me.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JC,

I already explained my opinion of Seminole. And furthermore all of those things you mentioned have a lot to do with architecture. Views, Aesthetics, being fun to play....... Do you think an architect has no control over these things?

I will explain why I think Seminole is not Aesthetically pleasing.

1. In the winter, when most people see/play the course, it is brown. And not 100 % brown, but spotty Brown. If you look in the Southern Dunes thread, I have some photos of a brown course, that I think looks good.

What's wrong with that when the TURF PLAYS F & F ?
Is it the playing conditions or the look that's the most important ?

2. Most of the holes at Seminole are on a flat, I like golf holes with movement, they look a lot better  bunkers set into hillsides look more natural than bunkers built on flat ground.

ONLY 4 our of 18 holes are flat, tee to green.

Could you name 10 courses in Southeastern Florida that have the movement you like on 9 or 18 holes ?

3. The lakes, and the lake edges are just stale and un-natural looking, and there are a lot of them.

How are they unnatural looking ?
There are thee (3) lakes

4. The exposed sand just does not look good, does not look natural or Dunes-ey.  Much of it has been over-grown with Bermuda and there is little native vegetation. I will tell you that #3 did look good, as there were clusters of some pretty great trees, I also like #6 a lot as the hole has some great movement and sets into the dune perfectly.

Ryan, how much experience do you have win South Florida ?
That is HOW NATURAL SAND LOOKS ON SLOPES AND HILLS
Much of the "natural" vegetation you refer to is on the Florida "eradication" list, like Brazilian Pepper trees, etc., etc..

Is it fair to say that you seem to favor benign neglect that would allow vegetation to become overgrown and invasive ?

Like I said before, I think its a good course, its just not for me.



To each his own.

[M. Shea Sweeney]

JC,

I already explained my opinion of Seminole. And furthermore all of those things you mentioned have a lot to do with architecture. Views, Aesthetics, being fun to play....... Do you think an architect has no control over these things?

Ryan-

Once again you've never played the golf course so I don't see how you can comment on whether or not the course is fun to play. I think if you went there that day you would have a completely different opinion.

"1. In the winter, when most people see/play the course, it is brown. And not 100 % brown, but spotty Brown. If you look in the Southern Dunes thread, I have some photos of a brown course, that I think looks good"

What does this have anything to do with the playability of the golf course? So I guess when Newport, Maidstone, Pacific Dunes, Fishers Island and the great courses of Scotland and Ireland turn spotty brown it then influences the playability and fun factor--negatively?

"The exposed sand just does not look good, does not look natural or Dunes-ey.  Much of it has been over-grown with Bermuda and there is little native vegetation"

Could you elaborate on this point?

"Most of the holes at Seminole are on a flat, I like golf holes with movement, they look a lot better  bunkers set into hillsides look more natural than bunkers built on flat ground."

I will let Patrick Mucci comment on this. I remember on more than one occassion him commenting on whether Seminole is "flat" or not.


 With all due respect Ryan I think you are searching for ways to to put Seminole down in order to come off as having some sort of "outside the box" viewpoint of Golf Architecture. I do not doubt your love for the subject and knowledge but I think your premise is flawed here.

From a few pages back:
Ryan, you may be able to coment all you want on the way Lindsay Lohan looks, but I bet if you got to spend a couple hours with her, you may be better inclined to comment on what shes acctually like  

[Patrick Hodgdon]

JC,

I already explained my opinion of Seminole.

Ryan I'm jumping in here because, like everyone else, I am very interested to dig deeper on why Seminole isn't as great a course in your mind as it is in all of ours.

Here's what you wrote earlier in the thread:

but..... every "good" golf course I have ever seen is still miles ahead of Seminole. I haven't quite traveled like some on here, but I have gotten to see some damn fine golf courses in the last 3 or 4 years and Seminole, is just  plain boring.

And I've read what you have about how great the routing is, and how it takes such advantage of the 1 dune ridge but come on, this golf course can be duplicated pretty much anywhere with 1 big dirt move on a dead flat site (which begs the question, why hasn't it). I must have had the blinders on but I got a peak of the ocean once then a glimpse near the end, and then I had to stand on my tip toes to really see the ocean up close.

I'm sorry, I just don't buy into the hype, which is driven by the clubs desire to be "exclusive". And I really think the no picture taking policy is in effect because the course really doesn't look that great.... at all.

I still think its a great course but I wouldn't want to play it every day, and I certainly don't think it belongs in the top 25.

*Runs for cover!

and...

I'm not really denying what is great about Seminole. My problem is what Seminole is not, it is not appealing to me. When I was out there I could not help but thinking, joe the plumber could easily confuse this place with his local muni. That feeling stuck with me. Albeit the architecture is there, the challenging shot makers course is there, much like Oakmont. But I just felt let down big time. Like this is it, this is Seminole. I did not get that feeling at all from the other courses on my list. I guess its a feel thing for me.

and...

And I love how Ross courses actually play. Pinehurst #2 on Tiger woods, fantastic. There is no denying how great his courses are strategically and that is no different at Seminole.

So I'm curious as to where above you have described what Seminole is lacking in it's architecture. Every negative comment you make is tied to how it looks and the aesthetics of the course. You also seem to contradict yourself, for instance in the first post you question how great the routing is and say it could be duplicated just about anywhere but then talk about how you can see how it's a great strategic course like Oakmont. Then you make the comment that Joe the plumber could mistake it for a local muni but say that you don't deny what is great about Seminole.

In your last comment you talk about how much fun Ross courses are to play and yet you discount Seminole without even having played it. So my question is even if you were to play Seminole and have the most fun on any course you've ever played you would still be distracted by the aesthetics which aren't your cup of tea?

And furthermore all of those things you mentioned have a lot to do with architecture. Views, Aesthetics, being fun to play....... Do you think an architect has no control over these things?

I am still shocked that you didn't enjoy the views at Seminole. I thought that the routing and the property allowed for some of the best views/vistas of a golf course, in terms of looking out over the course itself, I've seen. (granted I'm less traveled than most)

I will explain why I think Seminole is not Aesthetically pleasing.

1. In the winter, when most people see/play the course, it is brown. And not 100 % brown, but spotty Brown. If you look in the Southern Dunes thread, I have some photos of a brown course, that I think looks good.

2. Most of the holes at Seminole are on a flat, I like golf holes with movement, they look a lot better  bunkers set into hillsides look more natural than bunkers built on flat ground.

I thought the conditions that were playing fast and firm were great and if that means brown spots then so be it.

As for #2, did you see the same Seminole that I did? I can count only 4 holes that are flat. (#1, #8, #9, #10) I think the last adjective anyone could use regarding Seminole, especially given its location in Florida, is flat. Every other hole on the course has movement.

3. The lakes, and the lake edges are just stale and un-natural looking, and there are a lot of them.

I barely remember the lake edges as I was busy taking in the wonderful long views of the property. The only holes I remember the lakes themselves coming into play were #7, #10, and #15. For a Florida course Seminole has very little water in play.

4. The exposed sand just does not look good, does not look natural or Dunes-ey.  Much of it has been over-grown with Bermuda and there is little native vegetation. I will tell you that #3 did look good, as there were clusters of some pretty great trees, I also like #6 a lot as the hole has some great movement and sets into the dune perfectly.

Like I said before, I think its a good course, its just not for me.

I thought the exposed dune sand looked great especially on #18 but this is more of a to each his own point.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JC,

I already explained my opinion of Seminole.

Ryan I'm jumping in here because, like everyone else, I am very interested to dig deeper on why Seminole isn't as great a course in your mind as it is in all of ours.

Here's what you wrote earlier in the thread:

but..... every "good" golf course I have ever seen is still miles ahead of Seminole. I haven't quite traveled like some on here, but I have gotten to see some damn fine golf courses in the last 3 or 4 years and Seminole, is just  plain boring.

And I've read what you have about how great the routing is, and how it takes such advantage of the 1 dune ridge but come on, this golf course can be duplicated pretty much anywhere with 1 big dirt move on a dead flat site (which begs the question, why hasn't it). I must have had the blinders on but I got a peak of the ocean once then a glimpse near the end, and then I had to stand on my tip toes to really see the ocean up close.

I'm sorry, I just don't buy into the hype, which is driven by the clubs desire to be "exclusive". And I really think the no picture taking policy is in effect because the course really doesn't look that great.... at all.

I still think its a great course but I wouldn't want to play it every day, and I certainly don't think it belongs in the top 25.

*Runs for cover!

and...

I'm not really denying what is great about Seminole. My problem is what Seminole is not, it is not appealing to me. When I was out there I could not help but thinking, joe the plumber could easily confuse this place with his local muni. That feeling stuck with me. Albeit the architecture is there, the challenging shot makers course is there, much like Oakmont. But I just felt let down big time. Like this is it, this is Seminole. I did not get that feeling at all from the other courses on my list. I guess its a feel thing for me.

and...

And I love how Ross courses actually play. Pinehurst #2 on Tiger woods, fantastic. There is no denying how great his courses are strategically and that is no different at Seminole.

So I'm curious as to where above you have described what Seminole is lacking in it's architecture. Every negative comment you make is tied to how it looks and the aesthetics of the course. You also seem to contradict yourself, for instance in the first post you question how great the routing is and say it could be duplicated just about anywhere but then talk about how you can see how it's a great strategic course like Oakmont. Then you make the comment that Joe the plumber could mistake it for a local muni but say that you don't deny what is great about Seminole.

In your last comment you talk about how much fun Ross courses are to play and yet you discount Seminole without even having played it. So my question is even if you were to play Seminole and have the most fun on any course you've ever played you would still be distracted by the aesthetics which aren't your cup of tea?

And furthermore all of those things you mentioned have a lot to do with architecture. Views, Aesthetics, being fun to play....... Do you think an architect has no control over these things?

I am still shocked that you didn't enjoy the views at Seminole. I thought that the routing and the property allowed for some of the best views/vistas of a golf course, in terms of looking out over the course itself, I've seen. (granted I'm less traveled than most)

I will explain why I think Seminole is not Aesthetically pleasing.

1. In the winter, when most people see/play the course, it is brown. And not 100 % brown, but spotty Brown. If you look in the Southern Dunes thread, I have some photos of a brown course, that I think looks good.

2. Most of the holes at Seminole are on a flat, I like golf holes with movement, they look a lot better  bunkers set into hillsides look more natural than bunkers built on flat ground.

I thought the conditions that were playing fast and firm were great and if that means brown spots then so be it.

As for #2, did you see the same Seminole that I did? I can count only 4 holes that are flat. (#1, #8, #9, #10) I think the last adjective anyone could use regarding Seminole, especially given its location in Florida, is flat. Every other hole on the course has movement.

3. The lakes, and the lake edges are just stale and un-natural looking, and there are a lot of them.

I barely remember the lake edges as I was busy taking in the wonderful long views of the property. The only holes I remember the lakes themselves coming into play were #7, #10, and #15. For a Florida course Seminole has very little water in play.

4. The exposed sand just does not look good, does not look natural or Dunes-ey.  Much of it has been over-grown with Bermuda and there is little native vegetation. I will tell you that #3 did look good, as there were clusters of some pretty great trees, I also like #6 a lot as the hole has some great movement and sets into the dune perfectly.

Like I said before, I think its a good course, its just not for me.

I thought the exposed dune sand looked great especially on #18 but this is more of a to each his own point.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

Here are the few pictures I snuck in...

A view of the great 4th hole from the left side not far from JC's world class hybrid approach shot.



A look out from the 14th tee.



A look over the dune at the beach:


The par 3 17th:


The foursome from left, Patrick Hodgdon, JC Jones, Kirk Hodgdon, Thomas Hodgdon

[Dean Stokes]

Number 17 for me might be one of the best par 3's I've ever played. It is certainly the toughest I've played at 170 yards with no hazards in play - unless of course the ocean 60 yards left of the green is in play for some of us!!!!!

[TEPaul]

Those damn seagrapes in those photos! Some may like them but I hate those things, always have. I realize they may be good for stabilization and such but I wish they'd rip them all off the course. If they did they would just be back like they are in a year or two anyway because unless you keep slapping those things upside the head they will completely take over South Florida, at least, after a while. Seagrapes and water hyacinth! I think there may be some secret cabal between those two plants to take over Florida and seceded it from the nation.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

The Seagrapes are a necessary buffer.

That's not Patrick Hodgdon, that's Ernie Els's brother.

Birdied # 17 Friday.

I'll be back.

PS.  from a great drive on # 3, only 210 to the center of the green, I made a difficult downhill, sidehill 6 footer for an 11.