Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole

[Big Pete]

That's the 8th green taken looking back from a big dune off the left of 9 fairway down the valley Tom chose not to route the 9th

[Andrew Thomson]

Emil's earlier post had me doubting myself, but I stuck with 7 as even standing there when I took the picture (i have a few others from the same spot, I just thought that one was cool because it's like a mystery green in the middle of nothing) I thought it was the 7th.

Reviewing a few other pics, and I'm now pretty sure I am wrong and Emil, Tom and Peter are correct, it is the 8th - taken from approx 150m left of the 9th fairway.

Edit: actually, I'm still not sure.  As I am so high up there the sand triangle could easily be the left hand bunkers on 7, and it looks too far to be the 8th which would have only been 550m away.  I have a shot from the same spot that shows the 1st green as well that puts the distance in perspective.  My recollection of the back of the 8th is that it would be too enclosed to see it from where I was.

[Tom_Doak]

Andrew:

The back of the 8th green is not enclosed at all ... just by the dune ridge along the sea, to its left, and the big knob to its right.  That's how you can hit a tee shot off the left edge of the green in the direction of #9 fairway.

Peter is correct ... you're up on the dunes near the clubhouse, looking back down the narrow valley where Greg Ramsay kept wanting me to route the 9th fairway.  I've walked through there about ten times.  And you are only about 300 yards from that green ... it just looks farther because everything looks farther when you don't have the scale of a golf fairway in front of you.  The seventh green would be 850 yards away, and being forty feet above it would be fairly insignificant at that distance.

[Bryan Izatt]

Emil,

I think not - isn't that Bridport on the hill in the background and the sea to the right.  That means the Andrew was facing west, not east, when he took the picture.

Bryan,

He IS facing west if he is off the left hand side of the 9th fairway, looking towards the 8th green.

Sorry Emil, my bad.  I read 18 when you really said 8.  Gotta get the glasses and brain checked.

[David_Elvins]

Tom, 

I think 11 suffers in comparison to other holes becuse the prevailing wind takes out the main feature,  the wide area out to the left of the green.  A decent player is hitting 5 iron to 8 iron inot that hole with a modest tail wind.  With very strong winds, some pros were apparently getting within 30-40m of the green with their tee shots.

IMO, the hole is much better into the wind and 1/ The centre fairway bunker comes into play, and 2/THere is a much wider choice of where to play the second shot.  The green contours are good but also quite subdued, which perhaps makes the hole fade into the background a bit. 

[Bryan Izatt]

I can see how long hitters could get it down into the valley in front of the green.  There is a pretty good turbo boost if you can get it running far enough off the tee.  Tom, when you're designing holes of this nature, are you cognizant of the possibility that the longer hitters will enjoy a disproportionate advantage?

I found the hole interesting and challenging, even with a strong tail wind, because I'm not long enough to get to the turbo boost.  But the hole is short enough that there is a reasonable chance to get there in two, even for me.  The features in front of the green provide some subtle challenge.  Not all challenges need to be in your face.

I notice in the picture of the second shot to the green that there is a cluster of divots down in the valley on the right where short shots collect.  Maybe the ODG's would place a bunker there, after the fact, to catch those errant second shots and the occasional monster drive.   

I presume if a professional tournament were ever held here, this hole would likely be a par 4.  There would still be an inordinate advantage to very long hitters.  I guess there are always going to be land forms and routings where a turbo boost can't be avoided, and, as a result of it's positioning, that drivers of a certain length are going to be advantaged.  Maybe short rough on the downhill portion to catch the long hitters and give them a downhill lie for their second shot?

[David_Elvins]

  Maybe short rough on the downhill portion to catch the long hitters and give them a downhill lie for their second shot?

     

[Tom_Doak]

Tom, when you're designing holes of this nature, are you cognizant of the possibility that the longer hitters will enjoy a disproportionate advantage?

Absolutely, that's why the entrance to the green includes a feature like the ridge, to make it hard to get a second shot close even if you are playing with a mid-iron.  It is only going to be that reachable in downwind conditions [which are the norm], but in those conditions, you are supposed to have to worry about flying it onto the green and having it run off the back and down the bank.

However, there is not much an architect can do if David Elvins' report is accurate that somebody was driving within 30-40 yards of this green ... that's a 410-yard drive!

[Bryan Izatt]

Tom, when you're designing holes of this nature, are you cognizant of the possibility that the longer hitters will enjoy a disproportionate advantage?

Absolutely, that's why the entrance to the green includes a feature like the ridge, to make it hard to get a second shot close even if you are playing with a mid-iron.  It is only going to be that reachable in downwind conditions [which are the norm], but in those conditions, you are supposed to have to worry about flying it onto the green and having it run off the back and down the bank.

However, there is not much an architect can do if David Elvins' report is accurate that somebody was driving within 30-40 yards of this green ... that's a 410-yard drive!

As far as I could see, a 400 yard drive most likely would be 300 yards of carry, a bounce down the slope into the valley and 100 yards of roll.  Knowing that the turbo boost slot is there (and the valley is a very nice feature) and that some small percentage of players can bomb it 300 yards in the air, and that it's down wind, I guess the back tee could have been put back another 30 yards.  But, what's the point.  There's never going to be a big pro tournament there, and who cares if there is one or two people a day who will hit it down there and think the hole a silly par 5.  And, I did like the "hazards", subtle as they were on the approaches and the green.

[Philippe Binette]

no matter what par  5 it is, after a 400 yard drive... it's silly.

[David_Elvins]

Its probably more like a 450-480 yard drive (and I think I was being conservative, it may have been 20 yards from the front).  To put it in context though, I think the tournament was postponed soon after due to high winds, and I know one of the guys can drive it 350 on a still day.  Its more a bit of trivia than a regular occurrence.  11 and 14 play in the oppoiste dierction to 12 and 4.  So what a wind gives on the par 5s it takes away on the short 4s.  When this thread finishes I will start a thread on the best  wind at barnbougle. 

[Bryan Izatt]

Hole #12 Par 4 254 meters (280 yards)


After a fine stretch of down wind holes we are turned once again into the wind for a second short four.  It has a little leg to the right along a ridge in the dunes.  This part of the second nine plays on top of the dunes for a large part and feels more exposed to the wind.  The length of the hole is such that many will feel they have a reasonable chance to drive the green; after all it's only 240 yards to carry the main bunker on a line to the hole and only 260 yards to the front edge.





On the tee it's impossible not to be tempted by the shortness of the hole, even when the wind is howling in your face.  It takes a strong will to manage the hole.  From the tee the hole plays up a ridge to a green that is perched behind a large bunker on the edge of the ridge. 

The right side is deadly with the bunkers and a scrubby slope.  With the wind in your face any minor fade action on the tee shot will lead to oblivion as the wind turns it into a slice.  There appears to be room to the left of the green and a slope that might kick the ball towards the green (but really doesn't.  The left side has a knob that's not really in play and a small ridge separating the hole from the 11th fairway.  The options are to lay up to the top of the hill and take your chances with a wedge in; or, to try to drive the green. 

I pulled driver, not because I was trying to drive the green, but because I thought I was going to need it to get to the top of the hill into the wind.  Bad idea.  My draw turned into a hook in the wind and went bounding behind the knob and almost all the way across the 11th fairway.  Sometimes firm and fast is a pain.





Now, at this point in the round we had a mini crisis.  The wind was blowing so strongly that my wife was almost unable to walk up the hill pulling the cart into the wind.  After a brief discussion about having her walk in (declined because it was all the way into the wind and, besides, she never gives up) I ended up pulling two carts on the upwind holes.  As a result the photography suffered a little on this hole.  (Fortunately David Elvins has come to the rescue with a couple of pictures of the rest of the hole.) Not to mention I made a mash of the hole.

The picture below gives a sense of the size and depth of the main fairway bunker and a scrubby slope to the right of the fairway.





The green, as befits a short 4, is very small at around 3000 sq.ft.  There are bunkers to the right and behind to catch errant shots.  The left side is protected by ridges and swales that effectively direct second shots, or drives away to the left.  Those that attempt to drive the green, but miss on the left have no bargain because of the movement in the green surrounds and on the green itself.

For the record, it is possible to recover from the 11th fairway (although I didn't) but it is a blind shot into a quartering wind to a small target with those annoying ridges and swales in front and bunkers or worse behind.

My fuzzy, wind addled recollection of the green is that I twice putted off it into the bunkers.  Time to move on quickly to the next hole, although I'd love to play this hole again in more benign wind conditions.  I'm sure I could par it.     In the wind this is another "little devil" of the par 4 variety.

[Tom_Doak]

The 12th green is probably the windiest spot on the golf course.  We shaped it on my first construction visit to Barnbougle, and when I came back six weeks later to put the finishing touches on it, about two feet of sand had blown off the entire green area -- pretty much wiping it back to flat.  The reason the green is so small today is because we had a hard time scrounging up enough sand to build it over again.

As soon as it was done again, we slapped the irrigation in and planted grass on it.

[Bryan Izatt]

And, sand still blows out of the bunkers, although not as badly as at St Andrews beach.  An added penalty for being in a bunker is the sandblasting you get in the face on an upwind bunker shot.

When you were configuring the bunkers was there any analysis of how you could orient or design them to keep the sand from all blowing out of them?

Looking at the Lost Farm pictures it looks like they have some pretty expansive exposed sand areas.  Wonder how they'll keep them in place.

[Tom_Doak]

Bryan:

Actually, from the pictures you've shown, the sand appears to be holding up in the bunkers better than I expected ... or else, they are doing more work on them than I thought.  You should see how much work goes into keeping sand in the bunkers at Sand Hills and Pacific Dunes!

We did know it was going to be a problem, and there were places we decided not to put bunkers because of the wind.  However, there were also places we put bunkers because we wanted you to be able to find your ball, and we couldn't afford to irrigate all of those areas!  Barnbougle was really built on a tight budget.

[Bryan Izatt]

Tom,

The tight budget is still somewhat in evidence in the maintenance.  I've no idea if they are replenishing the bunkers, but the walls look like they're holding up well.  Didn't see any evident erosion.  I'm not sure how the sand stays up on the face of that bunker on 12 pictured above.

I don't notice if you caught my comment on what I called "wire grass" back on the 11th hole, but I'm curious to know if that stuff is/was a maintenance/grow in problem?  It doesn't seem to affect play, but it sure is noticeable.  I've never seen anything like it in my travels.


 

[Bryan Izatt]

Hole #13 Par 3 188 meters (207 yards)

The 13th turns back again with the wind so the length is not too intimidating. From the aerial, it looks fairly straight forward, the two bunkers at the front are not too intrusive.  One back left that should be out of play.




Looking over from the 12th fairway, the green looks large (and, is) and nestled into the surrounding dunes.  The green extends further forward than one might gather from the aerial.  Of course, from up here you might be distracted by the backdrop of Anderson Bay and Lost Farm on the head over the river.





From the tee, the green looks inviting, especially sitting in the dunes and with the wind at your back.  But, it is becoming obvious that there is some really serious movement in this green.  The slopes suggest that down wind the back left bunker might see a fair amount of action.  And, the one short right interferes with landing the tee shot short enough that it can release onto the right side of the green.





As you approach the green, the scope and scale of the movement in the green becomes more obvious.  This may well be the most topsy-turvy green I have ever seen.  In two plays and multiple putting tries on the green, I'm convinced that there are many guaranteed three putts (although others disagree).  Suffice to say, if you are on the wrong part of the green from the pin, you will have an adventure.

You can see that the marram grass on the dune in the back has been trimmed back.  For good reason; it is easy to bounce a shot through the green and up the bank.

If this green was stimped at 10 or above, it would be unplayable.

It reminds me in retrospect of the Himalayas putting green at St Andrews only built into the  side of a fair sized sloping dune.








Now, the question needs to be asked.  Was this green site found or was it manufactured.  If it was manufactured, was somebody into the spirits before shaping it.       ........................   Just kidding.  This is one of the most adventurous greens I have ever seen.  A joy to try to understand and play.  I think Ian said they spent an hour on it.  It deserves that kind of study.

And for your fun and amusement, here is a link supplied by David Elvins to a You-Tube video of one way to play a shot from the back of the green.  The video gives a better feeling of the way the green plays than any description or still picture ever can.  Now, if only he videographer could have had a more steady hand in the gale force winds ........         Enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mb4k6gvhEeA

............................................................................................

[Tyler Kearns]

The 13th green is alot of fun in that a putt can be played in a large number of ways, yielding varying results. The first day I played here, they sent me off the back nine as a single, however, a foursome beat me to the tee. I couldn't think of a better scenario on my first trip over these links as I got to spend much time around each green playing recovery shots and wild putts.

TK

[Jim Nugent]

If this green was stimped at 10 or above, it would be unplayable.

What do the greens stimp at, at Barnbougle? 

[David_Elvins]

If this green was stimped at 10 or above, it would be unplayable.

What do the greens stimp at, at Barnbougle? 

Others might give you an accurate number, but when I have been there they have been 'slow' but always very very firm.  No pitch marks and a very wooden sound when you whack your putter into it.   The greens are a fescue bent mix which sticks up high but they are the purest rolling slow greens I have played. 

[Andrew Thomson]

Here are some more pics of 12.





Also, in relation to 11.  I had wedge in there 2 out of 3 plays and I'm not a long hitter.  Despite this, it's a tough shot to that green with wedge/9iron as it takes a big bounce if you land in the wrong spot and kicks through.

As for 13, some of the best fun I had on my trip there was about 30-45 minutes I spent with Dave Elvins and two others putting from all sorts of spots, its amazing that everything just seems to work.  We got balls close to the pin from anywhere on the green after a bit of thought, but we didn't hole many - I think Dave holed the only long putt in the time we spent messing about on that green.

[Michael Taylor]

 This may well be the most topsy-turvy green I have ever seen.

Clearly you haven't played The Lakes after MC's redesign of the 14th green.. I don't know what he was on at the time but I, for one, love it.

 

Pup

[Kevin Pallier]

This may well be the most topsy-turvy green I have ever seen.

Clearly you haven't played The Lakes after MC's redesign of the 14th green.. I don't know what he was on at the time but I, for one, love it.

 

Pup

Michael

Where have I heard that quote before ?  

[Michael Taylor]

Sssh.    I played there the other day and it reminded me of that quote that quote, sooo I though I'd steal it! 

 

Pup

[Tom_Doak]

Hole #13 Par 3 188 meters (207 yards)


Now, the question needs to be asked.  Was this green site found or was it manufactured.

Answer:  some of both.  The green site was that big and had that much tilt and some wild contours in the middle; we modified the wild contours in the middle to try to create some reasonable hole locations.  Brian Schneider did the shaping of it, with an assist from the wind.

I do not think the green would become "impossible" if the green speeds were faster; it would just become that much tougher to two-putt if you get above the hole.  The difficult thing about the hole is that because it's downwind, and has that ridge just at the front of the green [a natural feature], it is very hard to wind up on the green but short of the hole with your tee shot.  You almost have to try to cut an iron shot in there and skip it over the ridge.

Certain hole locations are much harder than others, and I'm sure they sometimes use one they shouldn't at all.  The back left location is probably the easiest ... it's a bit hard to get the speed right going up the hill, but that one can be gotten at from any angle.  Front right and close to the little ridge through the middle of the green is probably the toughest location ... there's a little shelf mid-right that is almost impossible to get at from the tee, but not so hard to putt to.

I do remember saying to Brian when we built it that we could only get away with this green because we were 10,000 miles from home.  If it didn't work out, then the course would likely not have caught on and nobody would bring it up to us!  So I guess it has worked out okay.  For certain, we were lucky to have a client who would let us build a green this bold and controversial.