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Ian Andrew

Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #150 on: January 29, 2010, 04:19:13 PM »
Not much left to say...

.....particularly when a Tiger snake is slithering across your shoes. ;D

Dave Scaletti shared a wonderful story about that before I went to Barnbougle.
I was petrified for the first few holes.

Ian Andrew

Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #151 on: January 29, 2010, 04:26:52 PM »
Tom,

Did you ever have any concerns about the change of setting from the end of the front to the start of the back nine?
It's quite a change in character when you get out to the 10th tee.
Or was this something you really liked about the routing?

Did you have any iterations that began at 10?

This is strictly out of curiosity because I enjoyed the course the way it was presented.
Always trying to learn something extra. :)

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #152 on: January 29, 2010, 05:20:09 PM »
Tom:

Seeing these pictures and reading your comments gives a true appreciation for the routing process.  Probably doesn't hurt to have been blessed with what seems to be an ideal site.  It seems for BBD the land presented a treasure map of clues for how the course would turn out, and how individual holes would play.

This raises a new found appreciation for the work at OM, where not only does it appear that you were able to create the best possible course for the site, but also to do so while paying homage to the MacDonald template holes that were the inspiration for the design.  This raises a couple of questions:

1.  How much leeway were you given at BBD for the location of the routing (ie - how much of the terrain was available to build upon)?

2.  Did the "homage" process for OM start before or after you had seen the site, specifically did the idea present itself from the land, or was this an idea that took shape well before you started walking the site?

Sven

PS - Hopefully one can still post complements on this site without raising the ire of those still in their early child development phases.

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Tim_Weiman

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Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #153 on: January 29, 2010, 05:50:17 PM »
This thread has moved well past discussion of the 7th hole, but I happened to look back and notice Tom Doak's kind credit for the "little devil". Like Tom said, it was some years before I raised the subject with him. At the time, everything in golf architecture was getting bigger and bigger, so it seemed to me someone - and who better than Tom and his Renaissance team - should do something quite different. That is, build something really small, a "little devil" I called it.

My recollection is that Tom seemed skeptical during our conversation and I assumed nothing would ever become of it. So, the discovery of the 7th at Barnbougle during the Renaissance Cup was quite a pleasant surprise.  I remember playing the somewhat monsterous 6th - quite a big hole I thought - and walking to the 7th tee. When I arrived, I felt like I discovered a secret, Gosh, I thought, this incredible little hole may have been my idea. But, I thought the last thing I should do is reveal what I was thinking. After, I didn't design or buld Barnbougle. Tom and his guys did.

So, I played the rest of the round enjoying the course, the companionship  of Aussie playing partners and the wonderful setting without knowing one more surprise was coming: after finishing the round Tom approached me and said "so.....how did you like your hole?" Amazingly gracious of Tom, I thought, a small gesture that was much appreciated.


 
Tim Weiman

George Pazin

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Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #154 on: January 29, 2010, 05:58:08 PM »
Any thread drawing Tim out of the woodwork is automatically a top-notch thread.

Great story, Tim, hope life is treating you well.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

David Scaletti

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Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #155 on: January 29, 2010, 06:32:22 PM »
Ian,

I didn't realise my story regarding the journey between the 17th green and the 18th tee had such an effect on you.

For the edification of others I told Ian about a "comfort" stop I took between 17 and 18. At about the time I had finished the job at hand I heard a rasping sound to my right. I turned around just in time to see the final 18 inches of some kind of reptile slithering across the path in to the  grasses. What concerned me was that the last little bit of it was about as thick as my forearm. Doubly disconcerting was that for the previous day or so I had been wandering blithely through the rough taking my pictures. I think I must have gotten Tasmania confused with Ireland and thought Tassie was as free of snakes as the Emerald Isle.

In summer I always take a "Pacifier" with me when I wander off the fairway in search of a wayward drive, particularly if the grass is long. I find that a 5 iron is usually sufficient, but I also make plenty of noise to warn any snakes of my impending arrival. So far it has been effective.

Below is a couple of images relevant to past discussion, a shot of the 7th and the 9th. It's the first time I have posted a picture, so I'm hopeful I get it right.

Barnbougle 7th
[/img]


Barnbougle 9th
[/img]

Philippe Binette

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Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #156 on: January 29, 2010, 06:46:29 PM »
the 10th fairway...

during construction, the start of the 10th fairway was capped with 2-3 feet of sand in spot since it's basicallly on the potato field. Then a storm came one day, the wind kick in before the rain showed up and... well... the capped sand went about 50 yards inland !!

seeing those pictures and especially the bold 'walls or lips' in the bunkers reminded me of my debate with George Waters wheter a foot high vertical lip was acceptable... my philosophy, who cares ! if you hit it in a bunker, tere should be at least a 1% chance of being dead.

now, some of those lips looks 2 feet high !!! wasn't me

Alex Miller

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Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #157 on: January 29, 2010, 06:58:51 PM »
David,

You could not have got those pictures more right. Great shots that highlight how special a course BBD is. Well done.

Ian Andrew

Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #158 on: January 29, 2010, 07:04:20 PM »
I can't think of many threads with more anecdotes than this one. Thank you to each of you for sharing. There are some more great holes to discuss, some features that may bring some debate and for me one green site where I would enjoy hearing Tom’s vision for the hole (it’s not the one you think). But that’s half the fun of this thread and this course.


David,

That photo was worth you walking through a minefield of Tiger Snakes! In my mind that picture has 1,000 hidden snakes all over six feet and hungry for Canadian flesh.



Andrew Thomson

Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #159 on: January 29, 2010, 07:36:13 PM »
I think the 10th greensite is probably my favourite one on the course, and one of the greens I like more than any other in Australian golf.  An absolute ripper.

Although Matthew alluded to playing to it from close range, even with a half wedge - I think it's a shot that needs to be taken from at least 100m to get the full enjoyment it offers, maybe not for your scorecard though

Andrew Thomson

Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #160 on: January 29, 2010, 07:43:11 PM »
Regarding pictures from unusual spots.

Can anyone tell me which green this is, and give an estimate of where I was standing to take the picture?


Philippe Binette

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Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #161 on: January 29, 2010, 07:58:06 PM »
Lost, that's where you were...

Tom_Doak

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Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #162 on: January 29, 2010, 08:02:12 PM »
Ian:

Which green site?  16?

Regarding alternative routings, the back nine routing was pretty much set from the day I decided to work counter-clockwise ... but that was VERY late in the process, only 3-4 months before we started construction.

I had walked around those dunes a ton working on a clockwise routing for the back nine ... I will talk about the snakes after this.  Anyway, my tenth hole was playing from the clubhouse site across the beach diagonally and backwards to the 18th tees, like the first hole at Machrihanish ... the next was a short 4 up toward #12 green ... then a par-3 similar to #13, but from further to the right ... then backwards from 17 tee up through 16 green to near 15 green ... and so on.

Andrew, it took me a while to figure out the picture, so I'll bet it takes a while before anyone gets it.

Mike Keiser came down to walk the routing with me and said the only thing he didn't like was finishing away from the ocean on #18, and he wished I would switch that somehow, but it was not so simple as just switching out 10 and 18 because the previous greens were separated by too much.  I had a different issue ... after three days on site I had seen how unstable the dunes were near the current 18th tee, and I was concerned that if I put the tenth green there it would wind up buried under a sand drift.

So, I went back out the next day and tried to figure out how to make a counter-clockwise routing.  I walked backwards up 18, and then I walked down below and found the narrow plateau for #17 green, and traced that back to a tee site in the dunes ... it was really finding that 17th hole that convinced me to turn it all around.  So I went back in and found Mike K. and walked him out to 17 tee, and said what do you think of this hole?, and he said he thought that would be a lot better.  So I turned around the rest of the routing [except for figuring out how to keep #13 in its present form], and we were off to the races.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #163 on: January 29, 2010, 08:07:44 PM »
Re:  the snakes:

While Bill Coore and I were together walking around in Florida last month [keeping an eye peeled for snakes], I asked him how he had gotten around Barnbougle to do the routing there.  When I was working on those routings I was often wandering around in knee-high marram grass by myself, and not knowing much about Tiger snakes, I was only really looking for them in the dune slack areas where it was wet, thinking they'd be like water moccasins.  It was only halfway through construction that I saw a 6-foot tiger snake going across a construction road by #12 tee, and realized that it was a miracle I hadn't been bit.

So, Bill says he and Sue went to a nature reserve while touring Tasmania, and a guide there told them all about tiger snakes.  The guide said they would generally move away from you unless you got VERY close to them, and even then, they would make a loud noise [something between a click and a hiss] as a final warning before they bit you.  And Bill just about died, because he had heard that noise at least three different times while he was wandering through the marram grass trying to figure out HIS routing.

And to think, people wonder why we are so sure of ourselves!

Kalen Braley

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Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #164 on: January 29, 2010, 08:11:40 PM »
Just in case anyone is curious about these bad boys...here is some info:  :o  :o

Tiger snakes possess a potent neurotoxin (notexin), coagulants, haemolysins and myotoxins, and rank amongst the deadliest snakes in the world. Symptoms of a bite include localized pain in the foot and neck region, tingling, numbness, and sweating, followed by a fairly rapid onset of breathing difficulties and paralysis. While antivenom is effective, mortality rate for this species is over 60% if not treated.[6]

Treatment is the same for all deadly Australian snakes. The Pressure Immobilization Method (PIM) is used to inhibit the flow of venom through the lymphatic system. Broad thick bandages are applied over the bite, then down and back along the limb to the armpit or groin. The affected limb is then immobilized with a splint. Identification of the venom is possible if traces are left near the wound. You do not need to identify the snake if bitten in Tasmania, however, as the same antivenom is used to treat all Tasmanian snakes' bites. The availability of antivenom has greatly reduced the incidence of fatal tiger snake bites, the number of deaths is now exceeded by the Brown snake. [7]

Bryan Izatt

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Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #165 on: January 30, 2010, 02:44:18 AM »
Regarding pictures from unusual spots.

Can anyone tell me which green this is, and give an estimate of where I was standing to take the picture?



Andrew,

OK, I'm going to guess that it's the 7th green taken from somewhere near the 8th tee.  Hopefully not from the slithering snake infested marram grass.


Bryan Izatt

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Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #166 on: January 30, 2010, 03:38:58 AM »


It is good to know that there is only one anti-venom required for any snake bite in Tasmania.  I feel so much more reassured now.  Better, any ball in the marram grass is a lost ball.  Take your stroke and distance and play on.  Let's leave it to those adventurous archies to tramp through the stuff.   ;D

Now, for any future adventurers who risk the snakey fairways of Tasmania, let's slither on over to the 11th tee, only a few yards to the right of the 10th green.

Hole #11  Par 5 475 meters (525 yards)

The first par 5 since the first hole and downwind and a reasonable length - this is going to be fun.  The hole is a bit blind off the tee but turns right and there appears to be a risk/reward drive opportunity.





As a tangential thought, standing on the tee, I'm noticing that a lot of the tees have random strands of grass that are perhaps a foot high scattered about.  You can see some in the picture below. Is this wire grass?  Do they go long intervals between mowings of the tees?  Or, does this wire grass (???) just not cut?

Focusing now on the tee shot, everything seems to tilt to the right although the LZ is fairly level.  You can't actually see the LZ or where the farway falls away to or what the proper line is.  Despite the apparently wide expanse of fairway to aim at, some doubt creeps in. Should you hit a power fade off the left bunker.  Or, fly the centre bunker?  Or is there a tiger line over the right bunker that significantly shortens the hole?





The left bunker is about 250 yards out so it is definitely in play if you don't cut the ball.  Just left of the centre bunker is a good line and carrying the bunker only requires about a 230 yard down wind carry.  But don't lose it anywhere right of there.  The large bunker on the right will collect anything over there.  If you think you can fly the right bunker, think again.  It's a 300 yard carry, there's another  bunker behind it, and losing it even a bit right of there is snake country.

Having successfully executed the drive you're faced with a second shot across a broad shallow valley to what looks like a large receptive green.  Standing over the second shot, I think many players will have the opportunity to get home in two.  Like a driveable par 4, a possible two shot par 5 is always welcome on any course I play.





Now, there are some subtleties to the second shot in. Of course, you didn't expect it to be easy did you?

Anything up toward the right side of the green has to deal with the runoff a little short to the right.  And on that line too, there is a bump that's just waiting to throw your ball off the the right and in to the bunker.

Short left looks like a better bet with a relatively flat lie if you come up a little short.  If you have the length to  run it in from that side, there is an annoying little ridge at the front left of the green that might just nudge your ball left away from the green.

And, did I mention that again you're down wind and if you come up safely short left, you are left wit a delicate little pitch over the ridge to a green that runs away.  To a front left pin position it's hard to get the ball to sit down anywhere near the flag if you pitching from short left.

But, nobody said that birdie should be easy. At least there is an opportunity to have a go.



Emil Weber

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Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #167 on: January 30, 2010, 04:39:59 AM »
Andrew,

Its the 8th green, I think, taken from way off the 9th fairway.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2010, 04:42:10 AM by Emil Weber »

Bryan Izatt

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Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #168 on: January 30, 2010, 12:43:05 PM »


Emil,

I think not - isn't that Bridport on the hill in the background and the sea to the right.  That means the Andrew was facing west, not east, when he took the picture.


Sven Nilsen

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Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #169 on: January 30, 2010, 01:33:02 PM »
Best guess for the mystery photo is looking back to the 8th green from the 9th fairway on the reverse line of a drive from the "secret" tee box.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Emil Weber

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Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #170 on: January 30, 2010, 01:45:48 PM »


Emil,

I think not - isn't that Bridport on the hill in the background and the sea to the right.  That means the Andrew was facing west, not east, when he took the picture.



Bryan,

He IS facing west if he is off the left hand side of the 9th fairway, looking towards the 8th green.

Emil Weber

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Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #171 on: January 30, 2010, 02:08:04 PM »
That dune is 1-of a kind on the property and why I think the mystery picture is the 8th green. The 2 photos are from 180° different angles, so on the mystery pic its on the LHS of the green and on mine its on the RHS.




Tom_Doak

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Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #172 on: January 30, 2010, 02:22:32 PM »
Nobody ever talks about #11 much.  When we were starting the course I thought it would be a standout hole.  I guess it is just frustrating, in that when you can reach it in two, it's very hard to control where the second shot winds up.  There is a lot going on in front of that green, and a lot more once you're on the green.


Andrew Thomson

Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #173 on: January 30, 2010, 04:38:43 PM »
It is the 7th green, taken from about 150m left of the 9th fairway up on the tallest dune I could find.

As it was May and winter time, I wasn't too concerned by snakes.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #174 on: January 30, 2010, 07:33:21 PM »
Andrew:

I am pretty sure you just flunked your own quiz, mate.  I think it's the eighth green.

Look at the last photo of #8 (looking backward from the green) earlier in this thread.  See the triangle of sand that's blown out of the bunkers short of the green?  That's the sand behind the green in your photo.

The only bunker behind the green on #7 is way back right -- wrong angle for how you describe where you took the photo.  Plus, there are (or were) a couple of little scrubby trees behind #7.

You've got to owe Emil something.