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Michael Taylor

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Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #100 on: January 26, 2010, 06:56:15 AM »
Bryan,

The 6th hole doesn't look particularly interesting to me. Is there more to it than the photos?

Also the 7th hole looks like a ripper. What would the dimensions of the green be in metres (length and width)? And what is the collection area like on the RHS like to get U&D from? Seems like a tough spot to miss it.

Pup

Sean Walsh

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Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #101 on: January 26, 2010, 07:18:57 AM »
Michael,

Any miss other than short right is worse than 50/50 to save your par.  Miss to the right and the smart play is putter but if you don't give it enough it's back at your feet.  Too much and you get to visit the bunker that forced you to err right in the first place. 

A little knockdown 7 iron landing between front right bunker and right edge of green and running up using the contours is the play for me, but being a lefty the slight right to left of such a shot after it bounces lessens the chances of missing right so not sure if it's the shot for righties.

Re 6 what's not to like.  look at the last photo, a lovely rippled fairway meaning a flat stance is a luxury.(if it had been taken either end of the day it would be easier to see).  Also it probably doesn't come out in the photo but from memory there is a decent amount of elevation change to consider as well.  Take on the carry and you get an easier second.  Play safe left and the chances of your approach being shunted off to the right are good. Play two good shots and your chances of walking off with a birdie are pretty good.  Play one poor/ill considered/overambitious one and Bogey or worse.

Andrew Thomson

Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #102 on: January 26, 2010, 07:35:09 AM »
Brian,

The 13th to the back right pin from the back left corner maybe?
I understand what Ian is saying about every pin having a putt - and at 13 it may take a while to find it but there is generally a way.


Mike,

You got the right green, but I was thinking the back centre tier/bowl/shelf (?) to a pin in the middle right swale.  I tried different angles, trickling it over, or putting it past the pin and having it feed back off the rise.  Nothing closer than 10 or 12 feet.  Maybe I just needed more time.   ;D  Sad part was that the pin was set on the back tier the next day and I couldn't get my ball back there off the tee that day.  A fun green.  I imagine there are many locations on that green that might require Ian's half hour to find the lines.



David Elvins, the unfortunate gentleman stuck in the bunker on the 4th in the video, another bloke and I, all spent close to an hour on this green and I can assure you that all pins are accessible if you are creative enough! 

It's quite extraordinary where the ball will feed on that green if you hit it to the correct spot.

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #103 on: January 26, 2010, 04:09:59 PM »


Michael,

I think Sean has answered regarding #6.  All I'd add is that it was a joy to get on the tee with driver in hand and be downwind and let it rip.  Probably gets a lot of people in trouble. 

The 7th green would be about 15 meters wide and 20 or so meters deep.  Small.


Andrew,

I guess you can work more creativity into an hour with three people than I could with one person and 5 minutes.  Pace of play must have been good that day.   ;D  What a fantastic green that it entices people into lengthy periods of trying to figure it out.



Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #104 on: January 26, 2010, 05:39:05 PM »

This one is a cruel little devil in the wind; does anyone on the design/build crew want to take personal credit for this one?  But, sheesh, I'd really love to try it again.   ;D



He has never advertised it as such, but as I remember, Eric Iverson built this green, and he and Brian Schneider dug the bunkers.  The fact that Eric is our resident low-handicapper probably influenced the size of the green a bit, but the idea was always to keep it small.

I will give credit for the original idea of the "Little Devil," or at least its name, to our friend Tim Weiman who now rarely appears on this site.  Years ago when we were at Stonewall together he talked of his affinity for really short par-3 holes, which he called "little devils".  When we found the site for one in Tasmania, I thought it appropriate to hijack his name for it.

Ian asked about different routing options we considered for this hole.  There were basically three of them.  In an older routing, the hole played the opposite direction, downwind from green to tee (actually to a narrow little valley beside the tee).  But, we couldn't figure out a safe way to get from the sixth green to that tee, so we abandoned the idea.

The next routing had a par-3 hole playing from pretty much the present tee, to the top of the dune ridge overlooking the beach, followed by a somewhat shorter par-4 8th hole.  That didn't work so well for the landing area(s) on #8, and the more we looked at the green site, with a steep drop at the right of it, we thought that would become a death pit with the usual left-to-right crosswind.  We didn't like what that did for either hole, so Mike Clayton and I looked hard at #8 and arrived at the present tee location, and then started looking at what to do in between.  Mike suggested turning back into the wind [since the next several holes were all downwind], and from the moment he suggested that, it took about five minutes to find the green site and decide what we were going to do.

The small bailout area to the right of the green is key to making the hole work.  It's an impossibly tiny target without the bailout area, but with it, you can play safely to the right and then guarantee yourself a 4 with a decent putt up the bank.  In match play, there are days when I would aim there if I held the honor, and dare my opponent to take on the green and all the trouble left and long.

P.S.  I didn't comment on #6, and I don't think it is one of the standout holes on the course, but I really like the hole because it was essentially all there [apart from leveling out the green a bit].  Some commenters have implied that we should have done something more with it somehow, but I think that hole exemplifies the sort of restraint we try to bring to the job.  It makes strategic sense and the shot values were fine as it lay ... why do more?  This is especially so in light of the multitude of choices you face on #4 and #8, and the demanding nature of #5 and #7 ... a wild sixth hole in the middle of all that would have been overkill.

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #105 on: January 26, 2010, 08:08:17 PM »
Tom,

Even you might be underselling the sixth.  When the wind is from the east, I would rate it one of the top holes on the course (behind maybe only 4, 11, 13, and 15).  Downwind it is an unfortunate length as it is too easy to fly the dune on the right.  Into the wind, when it plays as a driver - mid iron hole, the strategy really comes to the fore and the player has a difficult decision to make as to whether to try and fly any of the dune. 

Conversely, the 7th becomes a much poorer hole in the easterly wind.  Holding the 7th green becomes almost impossible with anything more than a 2 club wind behind the player. 
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Ian Andrew

Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #106 on: January 26, 2010, 10:22:57 PM »
Thanks Tom - I really enjoy those insights.

Regards,

Ian

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #107 on: January 27, 2010, 12:35:20 AM »

This one is a cruel little devil in the wind; does anyone on the design/build crew want to take personal credit for this one?  But, sheesh, I'd really love to try it again.   ;D



.........................

The small bailout area to the right of the green is key to making the hole work.  It's an impossibly tiny target without the bailout area, but with it, you can play safely to the right and then guarantee yourself a 4 with a decent putt up the bank.  In match play, there are days when I would aim there if I held the honor, and dare my opponent to take on the green and all the trouble left and long.

........................




Tom,

Thanks for the insights; I was intrigued by your strategy for playing the hole.  What percentage of players do you imagine would take your suggested approach (in match play, or otherwise) even if you stood on the tee and advised them.  Do not all of us players have it burned into our brains:  see green, hit green.  I have trouble seeing anything other than a small minority opting to take a sure bogey rather than try to hit the green. As an architect, do you design holes like this to tempt players into trouble, knowing that the vast majority won't try to manage the hole to minimize damage?

 

Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #108 on: January 27, 2010, 03:31:31 AM »
Dave Elvins,

I agree with you on the 6th.Into the wind it is a fantastic hole.If it isn't so strong there is a chance to carry it for long hitters but probably most go left and play a long or middle iron from there.
9,10, 11,13 and 14 are also fantastic holes into the wind - better probably that they are with the wind behind.

Andrew Thomson

Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #109 on: January 27, 2010, 04:09:16 AM »
Bryan,

With the prevailing wind there is a very real option of playing 'safely' at the green, with any wind interference pushing it to the right collection area, so you can sort of have your cake and eait it too.  however, best not to hit the downslope on the fly....!

Mike,

wind or no wind, I don't think the 10th gets the credit it deserves, that is one of my favourite greens anywhere in the world, I just love it.

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #110 on: January 27, 2010, 04:21:55 AM »
Hole #8 Par 4 446 meters (491 yards)

Looking at the scorecard upon approaching this hole it would be easy to be intimidated - it is the number 1 stroke hole and the yardage befits a major championship length.  With the strong prevailing wind at your back, it turns out that the length is manageable.  I'd imagine that in calm conditions or worse, into a wind, the hole would be a beast, no doubt deserving of its stroke rating.

It presents off the tee as a two tiered fairway, but as evident in the aerial, what appears to be the more direct line up the left fairway is only marginally (10 yards) shorter than the lower right fairway.





Strategically from the tee, the upper left fairway appears to present the direct line.  The flag is visible in the dunes in the distance in that direction.  The risks appear to be the dunes intruding into your vision on the left with the deadly long grass or the possibility of hitting down the middle and getting hung up in the rough separating the upper and lower fairways.

The right side appears to offer a less risky drive with the downsides being to lose it too far right or to have a longer shot into the green





In playing it twice, I managed to hit good drives both times, once up the left, and the second down the right.  Based on those two plays I don't know which is the better approach or if there is a better one.  Perhaps either is fine, and it just depends on how comfortable you are with accuracy off  the tee and what kind of second shot you want to have. From the aerials and the picture that follows it is evident that the upper fairway feeds down to the lower one at about 280 yards.  Although I'm not positive based on my one play to the upper side, I suspect that there is a turbo slot on that side that might aid the long hitters, although I stand to be corrected on that.  The risk is that you could end up with a pronounced downhill or sidehill lie.

From the picture below, from the upper left side, it is apparent that the fairway is more level with the elevation of the green, but the dunes and bunker encroach on the visuals of the line.  From the lower right side the green is elevated some 15 to 20 feet above the fairway.  The green looks like a fortress from there, but at least the line is less cluttered and there looks like an area on the right where you might actually not be in trouble if you come up short.  From either side it looks like an intimidating shot.  Against a wind, I'd think that most would end up at the bottom of the ridge with a blind third shot.





From closer in with my wee playing partner for perspective, the size of the ridge is evident.





My recollection of it is that it was large (20 yards wide by 40 yards long)  and fairly benign, befitting a long hole.  It was one of several holes where I recall that there was a kick plate on the left side of the green that might be useful approaching the green with a long second shot.  Thanks to Matthew for the pics of the green.








My drive is evident in the second picture and my second is on the right front edge of the green in the third.  Two putts for par.  I like this hole.   An exciting drive and a demanding second.  I like this hole.   ;D

« Last Edit: January 27, 2010, 10:38:13 AM by Bryan Izatt »

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #111 on: January 27, 2010, 04:26:51 AM »
Bryan,

With the prevailing wind there is a very real option of playing 'safely' at the green, with any wind interference pushing it to the right collection area, so you can sort of have your cake and eait it too.  however, best not to hit the downslope on the fly....!

Mike,

wind or no wind, I don't think the 10th gets the credit it deserves, that is one of my favourite greens anywhere in the world, I just love it.

Andrew,

Almost invariably my knockdown shots have a (RH) draw to them. Into a headwind they become hooks, even with short irons.  They don't drift right.   :P  And yes, I know about the ball kicking off the right side. The bunker way back on the right is double bogey hell.



Andrew Thomson

Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #112 on: January 27, 2010, 04:46:48 AM »
Would you believe me if I told you that this gentleman made 3 from this position on 7?    :o








Matthew Delahunty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #113 on: January 27, 2010, 06:30:07 AM »

Sadly, I didn't get a picture of the green, but my recollection of it is that it was large (20 yards wide by 40 yards long)  and fairly benign, befitting a long hole.  It was one of the holes where I believe there was a kick plate to the left of the green that might be useful approaching the green with a long second shot.

My drive is evident in the second picture and my second is on the right front edge of the green in the third.  Two putts for par.  I like this hole.   An exciting drive and a demanding second.  I like this hole.   ;D
Bryan,

Here are some greenside pics.




Matthew Delahunty

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Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #114 on: January 27, 2010, 06:38:53 AM »
Tom,

Even you might be underselling the sixth.  When the wind is from the east, I would rate it one of the top holes on the course (behind maybe only 4, 11, 13, and 15).  Downwind it is an unfortunate length as it is too easy to fly the dune on the right.  Into the wind, when it plays as a driver - mid iron hole, the strategy really comes to the fore and the player has a difficult decision to make as to whether to try and fly any of the dune. 

Conversely, the 7th becomes a much poorer hole in the easterly wind.  Holding the 7th green becomes almost impossible with anything more than a 2 club wind behind the player. 

Dave and Mike,
 
I agree, with you about 6.  A really good hole which uses the natural terrain beautifully. When I walked onto the tee for the first time it reminded me a little of 5 at Cruden Bay with the elevated tee and dunes cutting in on both sides.  It's not a hole that will knock your socks off but it offers plenty of width, lots of strategy and it's not overdone by man. If one were to define a golf course by its "average holes" this hole would elevate Barnbougle above 99% of contenders.


Mike Tanner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #115 on: January 27, 2010, 05:15:57 PM »
Threads like this one are the reason I have CGA bookmarked. I can't wait to see the rest of the holes and read the comments. Thanks all. 
Life's too short to waste on bad golf courses or bad wine.

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #116 on: January 27, 2010, 06:26:44 PM »
 ??? ??? ???


Wow ,,,doesn;'t this remind you of Royal County Down in pictures at least???

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #117 on: January 27, 2010, 06:29:16 PM »
Archie:

The back nine is not so much like Royal County Down.

Then again, neither is the back nine at Royal County Down!

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #118 on: January 27, 2010, 07:28:25 PM »


Not to mention the sun shines a lot more at BD.


archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #119 on: January 27, 2010, 08:48:32 PM »
 ;D ;) :D

Quite good Tom , as to the pictures they do look similar to RCD , except for the deep bunkers ....as for the two nines the first is sooooooooooo good it does overhwhelm you  as you suggest

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #120 on: January 28, 2010, 03:03:03 AM »

Hole #9  Par 4  400 meters (440 yards)

The 9th continues to play down wind and returns you to the clubhouse.  From the aerial it is evident that the last part of the fairway and the green are displaced to the left of the main landing area off the tee.  If you pay attention when leaving the clubhouse to start your round you can place the green as hard against the clubhouse.  The length is robust for a par 4, but with the prevailing wind and the topography of the fairway it plays shorter.




Standing on the tee for the first time, the strategy and line off the tee is not at all obvious.  The landing area is blind, there is a hint of trouble on the higher left side, and the fairway seems to want to go to the right.  Meanwhile, if you remember, the green is in front of the clubhouse, whose roof is visible to the left above the crest of the fairway. There is some uncertainty about what lies beyond the crest and how the humpy bumpy fairway is going to propel the ball.





Despite the length, it turns out to be easy to get the ball a long way down due to following wind and the contours of the fairway.  The likely resting place is down in a hollow to the right of the green leaving a short iron in to an elevated green.  The difficulty is that the approach from that angle needs to deal with the deep bunkers guarding the front right side.  What's not evident from down there is that the green not only is downwind, but it runs pretty quickly away towards the clubhouse.  The trick is to land short of the green and let it release down to the pin.  But, then from the right side those bunkers sort of get in the way at least in your head, with that strategy.

Perhaps a better strategy off the tee is to lay the tee shot back to the 150 meter mark (which I achieved in the second round off a missed driver) where there is a relatively level lie with a straighter approach down the length of the green.  

Another interesting feature of the green surrounds is yet another left to right slope of fairway blending into the green.  It can be usefully used both from the laid back in the fairway shot or even more creatively for the shorter right side shot to bank shots away from the bunkers and feed them in to pin positions either front or back.  Watching the ball slowly release out on the green is great fun.    





The green itself is fairly benign to putt although a delicate touch is required going from front to back.  Although I don't have a picture of the green, the following shot from the cottages looking over the green to the left of the clubhouse indicates fairly well the front to back slope.  From this angle it is a much greater grade than what it looks like when you approach it from the fairway side.





And, thanks to Emil for a shot of the green that shows the kick plate to the left of and feeding in to the green.





The adventure of a blind tee shot followed by the challenge of a well placed bump and run to a redan-like green makes for a fun hole, although with the wind it should be a relatively easy par.

« Last Edit: January 28, 2010, 12:16:24 PM by Bryan Izatt »

Big Pete

Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #121 on: January 28, 2010, 04:03:48 AM »
When the course first opened it wasn't quite as hard and fast as it is now , and a decent drive placed you on the elevated ridge 150 metres out looking at a green sited with the spectacular beach as a backdrop( I may dig around for an old pic)
It was one of my really favourite shots in golf - the wind and pin positions dictated whether you attempted to fly to the heart of the green or bounce in from the left . It's still a very good hole but the clubhouse extension now blocks out the beach backdrop , and a decent drive runs down into the valley where the majority of balls gather .
For me the shot from down there with a wedge is still intriguing but not an all world shot
This is one of a number of holes that may benefit if reviewed by Tom at some stage

Robin Doodson

Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #122 on: January 28, 2010, 04:36:30 AM »
The 8th hole is easily the hardest golf hole i have ever played. we played it into a pretty stiff breeze and myself and the other low markers that i played with couldn't even get close with driver / 3 wood. The 9th is a bit of a relief and a real fun hole. just hang your second out there low and left and watch it gather to the hole. having grown up playing on the links courses of scotland i can say that Barnbougle is up there with the very, very best of them. hoping to get back down there again later in the year with a group of aussie supers to check out the new arrival.

robin

Andrew Thomson

Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #123 on: January 28, 2010, 04:39:27 AM »
Peter,

Here is a shot from the shelf I think you are referring to, and upon reflection it is a shame that the clubhouse blocks the view of the beach.  I had never been there when it wasn't like that, so didn't miss it.



Here is a shot of the view I think you could possibly have got without that clubhouse extension


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #124 on: January 28, 2010, 09:50:50 AM »
That is the first time I've seen a picture from the ninth fairway since the clubhouse was expanded.  I've been told I wouldn't like it, but I have to admit, when I saw it my heart sank.  It was such a beautiful view "before" and the golf hole was really designed around that view.