Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole

[jonathan_becker]

That is one of the finest yardage books I've ever seen.  

I helped work on designing a yardage book for a club a few years back and it always bothers me when great courses have terrible books .  The people that designed this one should be commended for a job well done.  Extremely clean looking, yardages to points that actually matter, the green color makes it easier to read yardages, explanations on site lines, the spot of the actual front edge of the green, and it doesn't look like a laminate!!  Look at the yardages on the green area zoom....absolutely brilliant.

I'm just very impressed.  Well done

Edit - After seeing Tom's post above .... yardage book would be incorrect 

[Michael Taylor]

Bryan.... I am. Just can't get over how much fun I had being frustrated by that hole!

Pup,

Driving the green is more tempting, but most importantly, there is something for every level of golfer at the 4th at BD. Let's take a 25 handicap, who drives the ball +/- 150 metres. At RQ, the line would be obvious for him. At BD, he can choose between the left and right sides of the fairway, depending on pin position. Then on his second shot, he has to ask himself wether to carry the big bunker, or play left of it....

Matt,

As the hole mostly plays into the wind, trying the carry is an extremely risky shot as the fairway narrows and bunkers come into play...

Thank you Emil.

BTW is that bunker on the RHS much deeper than it looks? Looking at that video Andrew posted, it looks massively deep. And is there a position in the lay up area that still gives you a view of the green, or is it a guranteed blind shot if you lay up?

Pup

[Sean Walsh]

Michael,

It is a massive face.  Similar in size to that on the 4th at Royal St George.  10 - 12 feet from base to clearing the lip would be my guess.  Someone else will be able to provide a more accurate height I'm sure.

[Matt_Ward]

Interesting that the 221 meter mark -- just beyond the bunker would translate out to roughly 250 yards.

Also in covering the bunker carry it does seem -- from the photos I have seen it appears that once you cover that bunker that the ground does fall towards the green itself. Again, forgive me, my observations are based on pics alone and are not meant to diminish what others who have played the hole can add.

Is the wedge shot from below very demanding to get close to certain pin locations?

[Rob Rigg]

Has anyone played the 4th at Barnbougle and the 10th at Riviera?

I always thought the 10th at Riv was "the" short par four where you could sit on the tee for ages trying to think up your optimal strategy. It would appear that the 4th provides a similar quandary.

It seems like a 4 iron or something to set up a full wedge in from the left side might be an ideal play? Then you can see the green and get a feel for what is required to get it in the vicinity of the hole without having too delicate a chip or inb/w wedge off the short grass.

#3 and #4 are back to back extremely cool holes - one with the blind drive and forebunker on the approach into a tricky green and the other with the heroic drive option and two gnarle bunkers with a fairly evil green.

Great craic!

[Dieter Jones]

[Michael,

It is a massive face.  Similar in size to that on the 4th at Royal St George.  10 - 12 feet from base to clearing the lip would be my guess.  Someone else will be able to provide a more accurate height I'm sure.
[/quote]

Michael,



Sean, I would guess that it is more like 20 feet from base to top of that bunker. The pictures really can't show how big it is unless you have someone standing in there for scale.

[Tom_Doak]

I usually skim these threads, mostly to see what Tom has to say, but I try to not analyse them too much, as I want some sense of personal discovery when I finally get there. My recollection is that Tom once posted long ago asking not too many post photos for exactly that reason, though I think he has since seen the futility in that request.

Indeed, the fourth and eighth at Barnbougle were the two holes that I'd hoped to keep photos out of circulation for a while [and managed to for quite a while -- until this thread, there has never been much discussion about #4 anywhere that I've seen].  The front nine holes were seeded first so we had to use pictures of 13 and 17 to get people interested in the course, and #7 was quickly picked up by everyone, but these two have dodged the limelight for the most part.


Michael:

The bunker on #4 is probably 15 feet deep -- nowhere near as big as the face on the 4th at Royal St. George's, which is easily 25-30 feet high.

[Ian Andrew]

Rob,

I have…

I always thought the 10th at Riv was "the" short par four where you could sit on the tee for ages trying to think up your optimal strategy. It would appear that the 4th provides a similar quandary.

At Riviera you don’t think for long because you can’t help yourself. Everything lines up so well for the driver and you ignore the trouble. It doesn’t seem to make sense to play left even though we all know we should. And you should! I was lucky enough to play with Norman Klaparda, a long time member who said, “I’ve been playing here a long time and have always scored much better laying up but at some point every month I hit a driver because I can’t help myself.”

It seems like a 4 iron or something to set up a full wedge in from the left side might be an ideal play? Then you can see the green and get a feel for what is required to get it in the vicinity of the hole without having too delicate a chip or inb/w wedge off the short grass.

At Barnbougle the scale of the fairway bunker and long grass (full of snakes ) on the right is intimidating. I played short of the bunker at Barnbougle both days because I was not driving well and a full wedge was a comfortable (admittedly blind) approach. Peter Wood played long and left both times and made great shots in from that position using the slopes in behind to help his approach. I did like the angle he had in, but the tee shot to that position was not a good fit for me. Ben, who was much longer, went for the green both times with good and not so good results. Peter was the only one with two pars at the end. The hole certainly has lots of options, all worth exploring, which is the sign of great hole.

For what it’s worth – I love them both – but I didn’t see similarities in how they made me feel.

[Big Pete]

I know I am a little biased , but the 4th is one of my favourite holes anywhere in the world . Each time I play it the wind and the pin position dictate where I should hit the tee shot , and what club I hit
And knowing the green well allows me to use the slopes of the dell to advantage
I particularly love approaching the back left pin position - which I usually do from a short  right tee shot - but occasionally through a mishit or sense of adventure I come in from the left side , hit the approach high over the left dune , and then scoot up to see how I fared

I run a 3 day tournament in August each year  - pairs matchplay - for the benefit of Peter Mac Cancer Research . We have a lot of fun and raise  money for a good cause , and I set up the tees and pin positions each day
That back left pin is always my final day position

[Rob Rigg]

Ian - Thanks - I am clearly overthinking things from a distance!

It is strange and unfortunate that these special short par fours are so few and far between - apparently they are like unicorns!

Tom - Do not hide this eye candy of the highest order!

I know - mystique is a good thing. I still cannot wait to play this course - photo heroin this is.

[Tyler Kearns]

That is one of the finest yardage books I've ever seen.  

I helped work on designing a yardage book for a club a few years back and it always bothers me when great courses have terrible books .  The people that designed this one should be commended for a job well done.  Extremely clean looking, yardages to points that actually matter, the green color makes it easier to read yardages, explanations on site lines, the spot of the actual front edge of the green, and it doesn't look like a laminate!!  Look at the yardages on the green area zoom....absolutely brilliant.

I'm just very impressed.  Well done

Edit - After seeing Tom's post above .... yardage book would be incorrect 

Jonathon,

I believe the illustrations in the Barnbougle yardage book were drawn by Michael Cocking, who works for Mike Clayton. He certainly has some talent.

TK

[Bryan Izatt]

I usually skim these threads, mostly to see what Tom has to say, but I try to not analyse them too much, as I want some sense of personal discovery when I finally get there. My recollection is that Tom once posted long ago asking not too many post photos for exactly that reason, though I think he has since seen the futility in that request.

Indeed, the fourth and eighth at Barnbougle were the two holes that I'd hoped to keep photos out of circulation for a while [and managed to for quite a while -- until this thread, there has never been much discussion about #4 anywhere that I've seen].  The front nine holes were seeded first so we had to use pictures of 13 and 17 to get people interested in the course, and #7 was quickly picked up by everyone, but these two have dodged the limelight for the most part.


Michael:

The bunker on #4 is probably 15 feet deep -- nowhere near as big as the face on the 4th at Royal St. George's, which is easily 25-30 feet high.

George,

Sorry, I should have posted a spoiler alert in the subject for those such as yourself who prefer to approach a new course unsullied by preconceptions based on pictures and analysis by others.      

Tom,

Ooops.  Sorry to you too. I missed the desire to keep these holes under wraps.   

On the other hand, I'm reminded of the biblical idiom to not hide one's light under a bushel.  All of these holes are well worth seeing, analyzing and discussing.  They do nothing but reflect well on you, Mike and the rest of the team.

[Bryan Izatt]

Only four holes in, and I'm left wondering whether this great ride can continue for the remainder of the round.  Onwards now to the 5th, turning with the wind along a path on top of the dune towering over the beach and Anderson Bay.





Hole #5 Par 3 201 meters (223 yards)

The tees for #5 are strung out like pearls on a string along the top of the dune, and further along the path, the tees for #6.  Leave the clubs there before descending to putt out the 5th green.





Although appearing to be a long three on the card, the hole plays substantially shorter being both downhill and downwind. 

From this vantage point, it is easy to see that the tie-ins from the green to the surrounding dunes is a work of art.





Of note in the aerial and not so evident on the ground is that the green is angled from the tee.  Along with the slopes off the dunes front and left and the tailing wind, the most obvious shot is to run it on from somewhere on the short left.  Played that way, the shot rewards you with delayed gratification as it bounces and releases onto the green.  The trick of course is to try to control the release to where the pin is.  Flying high shots at dart boards, this is not.

In my first attempt, pictured, the ball released only to the front upper tier while the pin was on the back lower tier.  The first putt ran nearly of the back of the green.  Down a ridge and down wind required a defter touch than I had. The putt just kept running out  Nice 3 putt bogey.  The second attempt was to a front centre pin.  My tee shot of course released to the lower back section, leaving a slower putt back up over the ridge.  Three putts later, another nice bogey. 

The tee shot generates distance control issues with the bounce and run shot most of us are not familiar with.  The green creates devilish speed and slope issues.

The cavernous bunkers scraped out of the dune short right might draw your attention on the tee, but shouldn't be in play except for the worst foozle.

Having completed the hole, wouldn't it be neat to duck up the right dune back to the 4th tee and play 4 and 5 again.

[David_Elvins]

The view from the back tee.



A very intimidating shot when played into the wind.  Requires all of a driver or three wood to get to the green and the target all of the sudden becomes very narrow.  The beach comes into play. 

The bunker definitely points players to the left and I think sometimes the best play is to go straight at the flag rather than use the bank to the left of the green.

[Ian Andrew]

We hit putts on the 5th for 30 minutes the first day ... every pin has a putt ... many involve the use of the short grass to find the line where you need to go.

Very cool green ... lots of fun to play!

[Philippe Binette]

Ian, I see below your picture : Chasing Stanley, obviously talking hockey there

When I was there during construction (the front nine wasn't built), the 5th was unclear to me... I understood the concept of the hole but it was hard to figure out how cool it would be, I guess it's the type of hole you need to see shots to go, Oh my !!!!

if Ian spent 30 minutes there, must be fun !!!

[George Pazin]

George,

Sorry, I should have posted a spoiler alert in the subject for those such as yourself who prefer to approach a new course unsullied by preconceptions based on pictures and analysis by others.      

Tom,

Ooops.  Sorry to you too. I missed the desire to keep these holes under wraps.   

On the other hand, I'm reminded of the biblical idiom to not hide one's light under a bushel.  All of these holes are well worth seeing, analyzing and discussing.  They do nothing but reflect well on you, Mike and the rest of the team.

I know you are joking, but I can say, it's been a long time, so I think it's fine to post the tour. The way my memory is these days, I won't remember anything much past next week anyway, so you have that going for you, which is nice.

Thanks for the pix, they are appreciated. Don't tell Tom , but there was a rather contentious thread awhile ago on the 4th, by one of our friends down under.

[Bryan Izatt]

We hit putts on the 5th for 30 minutes the first day ... every pin has a putt ... many involve the use of the short grass to find the line where you need to go.



Very cool green ... lots of fun to play!

Ian,

Not sure I understand  .....  every pin has a putt  .....  ?  Are you saying that if you try enough lines and speeds you will eventually find one that will work for each pin location?  If so, it seems likely to be true on this green, but there's another one later where there was at least one putt where in 5 minutes or so, that I couldn't find a line or speed.  Seemed like a guaranteed three putt.

................

And, here I thought Chasing Stanley was about Thompson.      Or, is Phillipe just having fun?

[Mike_Clayton]

Brian,

The 13th to the back right pin from the back left corner maybe?
I understand what Ian is saying about every pin having a putt - and at 13 it may take a while to find it but there is generally a way.

[Bryan Izatt]

Mike,

You got the right green, but I was thinking the back centre tier/bowl/shelf (?) to a pin in the middle right swale.  I tried different angles, trickling it over, or putting it past the pin and having it feed back off the rise.  Nothing closer than 10 or 12 feet.  Maybe I just needed more time.     Sad part was that the pin was set on the back tier the next day and I couldn't get my ball back there off the tee that day.  A fun green.  I imagine there are many locations on that green that might require Ian's half hour to find the lines.

[Bryan Izatt]

After the weekend hiatus, on to the 6th hole.

Hole  #6  381 meters (420yards)

Back up to the top of the awesome seaside dune for spectacular views of the bay and the 6th hole, the wind still at your back.  From the aerial, the challenge off the tee is apparent.  Hit it left to the open fairway or try to carry the conical dune down the right side.





From the tee, the same options are obvious.  A safe shot left provides a more challenging angled shot at the green along the dune line to the left.  The shot over the dune on the right raises doubt about whether you can carry it, even with the wind, and the risks of flaring it a bit to the right and into the hay.  The carry is about 260 yards, so not a huge challenge to big hitters, but just at a distance for most of the rest of us to be uncertain.





A lower level view of the elevation to the green.  The dune ridge interferes with a shot from the left, particularly to a back left pin position, if you go too far of the tee, but it doesn't seem likely that you could drive through the left side into trouble.  The right side offers a  a better angle to approach up the length of the green.  As you can see the fairway is quite rumpled with few level lies.  It's also evident from the divots that there is a popular low collection point in the middle of the fairway.  In olden days, perhaps after a couple of years, they might have put a bunker there.    Lest anyone think that as you get down into the dunes, that the wind is abated in any way, that would be wrong.  The wind is just as strong as it is funneled up the valleys in the dunes. 





Approaching the green, the challenge is distance control with the tail wind.  Despite the rise in front of the green it is possible to run the shot up, although care has to be taken not to run it off the right side ledge.  As with all the greens at BD, there are closely mown runoff areas around this green offering many recovery options.

From the picture from behind the green the rumpled fairway and the pronounced drop-off to the right of the green is evident.  There is a fair amount of internal movement in the green, but it is perhaps milder than many of the others.

[Ian Andrew]

Are you saying that if you try enough lines and speeds you will eventually find one that will work for each pin location?

Through trial and error - Peter, Ben and myself hits putts (often off the green and into the feeder slope) trying to find the most effective way to get the ball close on the most complicated of the pin positions. I had the advantage of Peter saying where the pins had been pushed to during his event and other days he had played.

We did the same at the 13th and 17th the next day too.

Stanley is Thompson – my hockey skills are definitely fading! And the Leafs……

[Ian Andrew]

Tom D,

When we get to the 7th, would you please share some of the options you considered. It would be incredibly interesting to learn how you choose between all those interesting alternatives.

I ask now, because I may have trouble getting back to the thread over the next two weeks.

[Philippe Binette]

On the 7th hole, it's remarkable how little disturbance was there, I was a picture of the first time they ran an excaator to that green site and not a lot has changed...

Ian, I knew you were chasing the Toronto Terror (Thompson) and not the Toronto Error (Leafs)

[Bryan Izatt]

Hole #7 Par 3 112 meters (123 yards)

What did Tom call this hole a few posts back - the Little Devil?  Well I can think of a few choice adjectives I could add in before devil, but then Ran and Ben would probably be annoyed, so I won't use them.  This hole is proof positive that holes don't have to be long to be difficult.  The aerial might be difficult to decipher, but the tees are to the bottom right and the green is in the middle.  I expanded the shot so that it is evident how close to the ocean the hole is.





For the record, Tom and crew have turned back into the prevailing wind for this short hole.  The green is small - around 3300 sq.ft. and longer than it is wide.  That would be a small target, regardless of the wind.  The wind can make it play significantly harder. As you can see from the picture below, the tee and green are quite exposed sitting near the top of the seaside dune line.  Given that the dune line is 30 to 40 feet high, a good bit of turbulence is added in the lee of the dune.  Any side spin on the shot is seriously augmented by the wind, making directional control to a narrow target tenuous at best.





The green is like a table top, and fast and firm, with false front, side and back.  The left side by the bunker might be flat, but that is of little stopping comfort.  The only bailout area that might be useful is short centre and that's small and tilted. 

The good news ...... if you do get it on there is a reasonable chance at a birdie given how small the green is.

Left in the bunker is difficult - it's 8 or so feet deep and recovery shots are likely to be going almost horizontal when they land.  Very easy to go right across the green and over the right embankment.

The right side drops off sharply maybe 4 or 5 feet.  It's easy to land on and run off the side.  If the shot is hot enough the back right bunker is in play.  In there is dead - a long bunker shot, downwind to a small table top.  Double would look good from there.  From the closely mown runoff on the right side it is a delicate shot to get it up on to the green and get it to stay.  A flop shot looks mighty risky off a tight lie.  Maybe a putter, although the grass is just long enough that getting the speed right up a steep slope would be difficult.  I tried 6 times with various chips from there and managed to get one to stay on.  (I know, I know, ...... lousy short game).

Long presents the same issues only accentuated because the drop off is greater and the recovery is dead down wind.

This one is a cruel little devil in the wind; does anyone on the design/build crew want to take personal credit for this one?  But, sheesh, I'd really love to try it again.