[Andrew Thomson]

Dave,

I love the finish to that vid when you politely inform Scotty 'nah, you just can't pick that up!'

I wonder if anyone has ever played this hole for the first time and despite not hitting their tee-shot in the bunker, decided not to drop one in there for a hit anyway?

I think the carry of that bunker is overstated, it's only 220m at best from an elevated tee.  Depending on the pin, having a blind apporach after laup isn't such a bad thing, as there are many ways to get the ball to the hole.

Clearing that bunker is also no guarantee of getting on the green as I discovered, if you hit it high enough it will stop up on the shelf.  This picture is where my tee shot finished and me having a go at the putt.  (that ball near the pin isn't mine!)



This one below is the sort of blind approach you get when laying up short of the bunker.



You also get a pretty good look at the 6th from the 3rd tee

[Tom_Doak]

And look at that 3rd fronting green bunker with the depth deception...  Brilliant.  A little MacKenzie rubbing off on Tom, Jim and the crew no doubt.

Patrick:

You've got to keep your associates straight.  Jim Urbina has never been to Australia; I built Barnbougle with Mike Clayton, Brian Schneider, Eric Iverson, and Mike's shaper Jason McCarthy, mostly.  If you're going to share credit for the work you should at least get the names right.

[jonathan_becker]

Can anyone tell me about the big tree on the right a short ways past #4 tee?  By looking at the photos, it looks as if this tree might eliminate the slinger draw with a driver in an attempt to drive the green from the back tee.

I'm just curious because the aerial shot makes a slinger draw with the driver look pretty tasty by flying the bunker just to the right of it. But if that tree is in the way, and you have to hit a cut to reach the green, that's probably too far to hit a driver for almost anyone assuming that it's into the wind.

But with a 2-3 club wind in your face, it's obvious that laying up short left is the right play.

The hole looks awesome.

[Bryan Izatt]

Dieter,

Nice set-up for the walk to the 5th hole.  It is now the background on my desktop.  It will be revealed shortly.


Andrew,

Thanks for the pictures.  I've taken the liberty of inserting the green shot into the hole description.

I measured the carry over the bunker as 230 - 235 meters, but I was allowing for some safety margin so that we wouldn't end up like David's friend in the video.   


Emil,

I think you're gushing.   


Jonathan,

I don't recall the tree entering my thinking standing on the tee, but others more familiar with the course might have a different view.  A slinging draw seems like the shot for taking on driving the green.  Of course, into the wind it'd be easy to overcook it.

[Bryan Izatt]

As Dieter alluded to, the walk to the 5th tee is spectacular, especially for those of us from cold weather inland environments.  So, without further delay here are a couple of pictures.  And, just look at all that spectacular golfing dunes land beckoning in the east out towards where Lost Farm is and beyond.

[Matt_Ward]

Gents:

With the proviso that I have not played the hole -- can someone explain to me why NOT going for the green at all times is not the better play?

There seems to be a natural feeder to the green if you can carry the right side. yes, I am aware of the wind dimension previously cited.

The wedge shot from the fairway looks to be much more demanding than I previously thought.

thanks ...

[Emil Weber]

Bryan.... I am. Just can't get over how much fun I had being frustrated by that hole!

Pup,

Driving the green is more tempting, but most importantly, there is something for every level of golfer at the 4th at BD. Let's take a 25 handicap, who drives the ball +/- 150 metres. At RQ, the line would be obvious for him. At BD, he can choose between the left and right sides of the fairway, depending on pin position. Then on his second shot, he has to ask himself wether to carry the big bunker, or play left of it....

Matt,

As the hole mostly plays into the wind, trying the carry is an extremely risky shot as the fairway narrows and bunkers come into play...

[Matt_Ward]

One further point -- I am thoroughly aware that the carry involved may not be a suitable option for many players.

Emil:

Yes, but once you do carry the bunker -- the natural feed -- from the photos alone that I have seen -- seem to work the ball towards the target.

[Emil Weber]

Matt, that's true, but how big is the chance that you hit a 10x10 metre corridor from 240 metres into the wind

[Tom_Doak]

Can anyone tell me about the big tree on the right a short ways past #4 tee?  By looking at the photos, it looks as if this tree might eliminate the slinger draw with a driver in an attempt to drive the green from the back tee.

I'm just curious because the aerial shot makes a slinger draw with the driver look pretty tasty by flying the bunker just to the right of it. But if that tree is in the way, and you have to hit a cut to reach the green, that's probably too far to hit a driver for almost anyone assuming that it's into the wind.

The hole looks awesome.

Jonathan:

I left the tree because of the proximity of #5 tee.  You would be aiming your "slinger draw" right at #5 tee and I know it doesn't always sling.  But, you don't have to hit a cut off the tee ... you just can't hit a big hook.

[Michael Dugger]

There is no risk of not making the carry if you are Matt Ward and his cheater driver....lol

[Tom_Doak]

Gents:

With the proviso that I have not played the hole -- can someone explain to me why NOT going for the green at all times is not the better play?

There seems to be a natural feeder to the green if you can carry the right side. yes, I am aware of the wind dimension previously cited.

The wedge shot from the fairway looks to be much more demanding than I previously thought.

thanks ...

Matt:

If the hole is cut in the back left part of the green, trying to drive the green would open up the possibility of winding up front left, and having to putt around the knob that sticks into the green from the left.  Because the green is in a bowl, there are some opportunities to putt off a bank to try and feed it around the slope, but in the scenario I described you are likely to be stymied.

The pitch to the back section IS very hard ... the best place you could be in that scenario is short of the green on the right, but it's almost an accident for the ball to stay there.

Aiming right off the tee also brings the right rough into play and a possible big number.  If you play left off the tee, the worst you're going to find is probably the bunker.

[jonathan_becker]

Thanks, Tom for the response.

How did you know that my slinger draw doesn't always sling?   

My buddies and I call the driver that doesn't sling a "pork."  You just pound it and when you look up, it's on a frozen rope straight right. 

Looking at the aerial again, I guess you're right.  No cut required.

I do like the fact that you made the hole very tempting to drive at roughly 300 yards.  IMO, there are too may times that holes are built that are so-called "drivable par 4s" that are in the 330-350 yard range.  I'm not short by any means off the tee, but those holes aren't drivable 99% of the time.

Having this hole as #4 is pretty cool because you can derail your round or get it going in the right direction depending on how aggressive you want to be and how confident your thinking is when standing on the tee.

[Tim Nugent]

The scale seems to be very interesting as it wasn't until I looked at the Utube video that I realized the true enormity of that right bunker.  I would think that from the tee, it would make it look much closer and easy to carry than it really is.

Tom: did the blindness of the green (from the right) have any bearing on your decision to lose the fore dune on #3?

[Matt_Ward]

Michael D:

Cheater driver -- ?

It's all USGA speced OK.

Help me out in understanding that statement.

thanks ...

Tom D:

Again, just from photos and from what you have said -- if the wedge shot after laying up is THAT demanding -- then getting a birdie would likely be better served by going for the green -- provided one can make the carry over the bunker area. Candidly, it would not surprise me if longer hitters would not even need to hit driver to do it - is that possible save for the days when the wind is howling into one's face. It appears the feeder area just beyond the bunker will propel a ball forward -- no doubt, as you mentioned, if one has too much right-to-left action the ball may found other areas that are far from receptive.

Tom, to help me understand things better -- what is a more demanding hole to drive the 7th at Ballyneal, the 16th at Pac Dunes ot the 4th BD -- in order of most demanding to least demanding ?

[George Pazin]

Matt, I ask this in no way as a dig, it's merely an honest question, but do you ever lay up on drivable - say sub 330 - par 4s? Would you ever lay up at Riviera #10?

In case you think I'm razzing you, I will add that I rarely lay up myself, and I know I often don't have the length to get home. I just know with my present game, laying up is not really any safer.

[Michael Dugger]

Michael D:

Cheater driver -- ?

It's all USGA speced OK.

Help me out in understanding that statement.

Did you see the wink emoticon?  That implies someone is teasing you. 

[jonathan_becker]

George,

I've been waiting for you to chime in on this thread.

Isn't Barnbougle one of the big ones that you want to knock off your list?  (My list as well)

[Matt_Ward]

Michael:

thanks .. by all means get yourself a Bang driver -- 

George:

The truth of it this -- the lay-up is often the way I go if the wedge shot left is quite pedestrian or simple in all senses of the word.

I mean if the wedge shot that's left is going to be a very tiny target with plenty of green demands and it needs to be played from say 75-100 yards then I think seriously about going for it since being closer may be the best alternative. From the pic I have seen -- and I mean to minimize my understanding of the 4th at BD since I have NEVER played it -- the shot over the right side looks to be a better play for score purposes. The wedge shot area which was pictured appears to be quite demanding.

The 10th at Riviera is a good example -- laying up is no bargain -- unless you can get the tee shot to the far left which opens up the green from that side. Going for the green is a very low percentage play because few balls can really hit and stay on the surface.

George, I will go for the target if the percentages are no less than 60-40 in my favor.

[George Pazin]

Thanks for the honest answer, Matt, I appreciate it.

George,

I've been waiting for you to chime in on this thread.

Isn't Barnbougle one of the big ones that you want to knock off your list?  (My list as well)

Barnbougle is THE big one at the very tip top of my list, for a lot of deep personal reasons that I won't bore you with.

I usually skim these threads, mostly to see what Tom has to say, but I try to not analyse them too much, as I want some sense of personal discovery when I finally get there. My recollection is that Tom once posted long ago asking not too many post photos for exactly that reason, though I think he has since seen the futility in that request.

[Mike_Clayton]

At least 75 days a year the wind is so strong that bunker can only be carried with an unbelievable hit - and when it is into that wind Tiger Woods would not even be thinking about making the carry - the risks for missing are too great. The bunker is probably 6 times out of 10 a bogey for a good player and you lose the ball if you miss right.
When the pin is right it is only visible from the high left side of the fairway and it takes a good shot to get it over there - it's much easier to play straight at the bunker and leave the blind pitch (pictured). When the pin is left behind the dune it is blind from everywhere short but the best line is from the far right of the fairway.
In a tournament - if ever they would have one - this hole would be one of the most interesting in the world to watch for the confusion it would cause - but it would need to be into at least a 25mph wind for tour pros.

[Bryan Izatt]

In my (limited) experience most non-elite players are delusional about their length off the tee.  Sure it's "only" about a 250 yard carry, but how many people actually can carry it that far, as opposed to having it as their total distance.  Add to that a common wind that's knocking 25 to 40 yards off your carry and we're asking for a player who can carry it the equivalent of 275 to 290 yards.  There aren't that many of those people in the world (although Matt may be one of them).

Matt, if you've got that length then you would, no doubt, always be tempted to go for it.  The reward would be a reasonable birdie chance if you are a decent putter and short game.  The worst risk is a lost ball right.  The lesser risk is the bunkers and a probable bogey.  If you're less than an elite player then you could run up a score from the bunkers.  They are huge and deep.

[George Pazin]

In my (limited) experience most non-elite players are delusional about their length off the tee.

Why do you think we play golf? It indulges us quite nicely...

[David_Elvins]

Bryan,

It's probably closer to a 230-240 yard carry, the yardage book is posted on the Barnbougle website.




Matt Ward,

A lot can go wrong if you go for the green.  A slightl pull or hook and you are in the bunker and scrub to the left. A possible hack out or at the very least a shot at a very shallow target with possilbe distance control issues due to the lie.  A miss to the right is often a lost ball.  And a ball in the bunker is an obvious bogey. 

Even down wind, club selection becomes key.  The longer you hit it, the more trouble you bring into play (thick stuff all around the green) and the temptation is to take less club so as to carry the bunker and let it run onto the green.  THis of course brings the bunekr back into play for any mishit. 

A great hole.

[Tom_Doak]

Note:  all those distances from the "yardage" book are in meters.

The amazing thing about this hole is how long it took me to figure it out.  For a long time I was trying to get to the far end of the course in three holes, and 3 & 4 would have been a long par five.  But I fell in love with this green site and it was clearly impossible for a long par-5 into the wind, and that's when I decided we could fit it two short 4's instead.

Once we had it figured out, it took about a day to build ... I just flagged out the bunkers where they sit, and filled in the hollow of the green a little bit.  Well, I guess the tee took a bit longer to build than that.

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