Fazio v Nicklaus -- who has the better top ten layouts amongst them ?

[Greg Tallman]

You forgot Cabo Del Sol for Nicklaus which is a fantastic course.  I would say top 5.

I haven't seen the news today.  Did the US annex Mexico?

Actually no, the US government turned down an opportunity to "annex" Baja California as part of the controversial Gadsen Purchase in 1853.

More on topic, are golf courses outside the hallowed grounds of America so irrelevant as to not be considered? The original post set no such limitations. Others introduced a US list as somke basis for comparison. 

[Matt_Ward]

Greg:

I was the guy who posted the thread and amended it as such.

No doubt others can do as they will ... wanted to see how matters fare on USA turf since TF is not as international as Jack.

[Greg Tallman]

I have not played enough of both to come up with top 10s, but based on head-to-head at resorts

Pronghorn - Fazio over Nicklaus
Reynolds Plantation - Niclaus over Fazio
Kiawah Island - Nicklaus over Fazio.

Where else have they gone head to head?

Querencia is adjacent to Palmilla, though not part of the same resort. Anyone played both?

Kyle,

Played each on multiple ocassions. Would have to give the slight edge to Querencia but by a very narrow margin. I believe Palmilla handles the uphill/downhill transitions far better while the overall quality of golf holes favors Querencia... we also play poker there every Thursday so I am fond of the place  

For anyone coming to the area and playing Palmilla - Do not be fooled by the naming of the nines (27 hole resort) and stay away from the Ocean Nine which is far, far inferior to the original layout that is now the Mountain and Arroyo nines. Jack was thrown a bit of a curve with the original routing and if you do play the Ocean Nine forgive Jack and his team as you play the hole to the water and then backtrack up the same cart path... not his fault. look at the land above the hole and imagine holes playing above and around the arroyo where the current hole sits with an arroyo crossing par 3 on the ocean. It would have been pretty good but...

[Greg Tallman]

Greg:

I was the guy who posted the thread and amended it as such.

No doubt others can do as they will ... wanted to see how matters fare on USA turf since TF is not as international as Jack.

Apologies Matt... even tried a quick skinm of all posts before offering the response. Sorry.

[Sean Leary]

I have not played enough of both to come up with top 10s, but based on head-to-head at resorts

Pronghorn - Fazio over Nicklaus
Reynolds Plantation - Niclaus over Fazio
Kiawah Island - Nicklaus over Fazio.

Where else have they gone head to head?

Querencia is adjacent to Palmilla, though not part of the same resort. Anyone played both?

Kyle,

Played each on multiple ocassions. Would have to give the slight edge to Querencia but by a very narrow margin. I believe Palmilla handles the uphill/downhill transitions far better while the overall quality of golf holes favors Querencia... we also play poker there every Thursday so I am fond of the place  

For anyone coming to the area and playing Palmilla - Do not be fooled by the naming of the nines (27 hole resort) and stay away from the Ocean Nine which is far, far inferior to the original layout that is now the Mountain and Arroyo nines. Jack was thrown a bit of a curve with the original routing and if you do play the Ocean Nine forgive Jack and his team as you play the hole to the water and then backtrack up the same cart path... not his fault. look at the land above the hole and imagine holes playing above and around the arroyo where the current hole sits with an arroyo crossing par 3 on the ocean. It would have been pretty good but...

Querecia is a REALLY nice place. Crazy land to build a course on, but Fazio handles those projects well. Worth playing for sure.

[Matt_Ward]

I think one of the issues I see with the TF v JN debate is the utter consistency of what TF has done with his staple of domestic USA courses. It's quite impressive in plenty of ways. No doubt the classic types whose noses are up in the air will likely pan what TF does but he has a roster of really neat work.

On JN's side -- you get these starts and stops where his work has shown really great contributions -- I was totally floored with the qualities of Red Ledges and frankly, minus what Golf Magazine wrote, few people (minus Joel Z here) have really seen / played the place -- no doubt a location just outside Park City, UT can do such things.

I will also say this -- JN has dome earlier work that gets lost in the shuffle. Read TD's comments on JN private at PGA West and I concur that the layout often gets pushed in the shadows because of PGA West / Stadium but frankly the Nicklaus layout is in my mind the better overall course. The same can be said with what Nicklaus and crew did with Outlaw at Desert Mtn. So much of Deser Mtn focused earlier on high profile demand layouts with a bit too much home intrusion in so many spots there. Not so with Outlaw.

[PThomas]

based on what i've played, Fazio (and i should  check my list of courses i've played), Fazio

i liked his course at Pronghorn better than JN's

other Fazio's i've liked quite a bit (not in order):  V Nat, WWoods, S Creek, Briggs R, Galloway, Preserve, Black Diamond Quarry, Forest Creek(Both)...other good ones  are Estancia, Dallas Nat, , Trump N. Jersey

Jack's:  Concession, Mayacama, Castle Pines...Sebonack is terrific, but he gets at most 50% credit so that hurts him in this argument, same for Harbour Town,......... Desert Highlands...i think Muirfield Village is overrated...Sycamore Hills is pretty good, as is TOC imitation at Grand Cypress...Ruby Hill, Bull at Pinehurst Farms and Scarlet, and Hammock Beach are ok but certainly not great

[Randy Thompson]

Fazio by a long shot...its not even worthy of a comparrison in my humble opinion, one is a architect..the other is a great business man!

[Andy Troeger]

I think both of them have done some pretty good stuff. In looking through my list their courses are pretty well represented. I've played quite a few more Nicklaus courses (25) than Fazio (15).

My favorite Fazios are The Alotian, Victoria National, and Gozzer Ranch. Karsten Creek and World Woods Pine Barrens both make my top fifty as well. Aldarra, Estancia, Whisper Rock Upper, and Flint Hills National are all pretty strong. There are a lot more that I haven't seen.

My favorite Nicklaus' layouts are Muirfield Village, Castle Pines, Valhalla, (Harbour Town), and Sherwood. I count 13 more that make my "second fifty" which are pretty strong in their own right including three of the Desert Mountain courses, Sycamore Hills, and Idaho Club.

Given that selection I don't see much of a gap but would probably give the edge to Fazio for consistency. Plus, I feel like I've played a larger proportion of Nicklaus' best stuff than Fazio who still has a fair amount of Top 100 stuff that I haven't seen.

[Matt_Ward]

I have to wonder if the lack of big time events takes away anything from the portfolio of top tier TF courses or is that simply because of th marquee value that Jack Nicklaus has for such situations and is really not that important to the overall design components ?

[Gary Slatter]

W Squared,

Why would most GCA guys prefer Nicklaus courses?  I know that it is trite, but they require the high fade, in contrast to the low slice and high pull favored by most amateurs.

Next, Fazio seems to roll alone, whereas Sebonack is due in part to Mr. Tom Doak, living, and Muirfield Village, to Mr. Desmond Muirhead, deceased.  I believe this clarifies the insinuation made by Mr. Jim Nugent above.

For me, the great unknown in the Fazio list is Wade Hamption...it has floated between 10 and 20 on many lists, yet due to no events there and a remote and smokey location, gets little press.  Who has played it?  Who can elaborate on its worth?

Right now, I'd say Tom Fazio over Nicklaus.

was Bobb Cupp not involved with Murifield Village?

[Julian Wise]

Another great Fazio course that nobody mentions is Sage Valley (in south Carolina just outsie of Augusta).

[jim_lewis]

I’ve been thinking about this question ever since it was posted. As usual, I base by response only on the courses that I have played. Both Nicklaus and Fazio have designed several highly regarded courses I have not seen, but then, I have played at least 25 Nicklaus and 60 Fazio courses, so I have enough sample size to at least offer an opinion.

If I consider only their  best 10 courses, it looks pretty close to me, but I give the nod to Tom. If I consider their second 10, it is Fazio by far. He has a lot of good courses I could not quite fit in my top 10. If I look only at their 10 weakest courses, it is no contest. I have seen lots of mediocre Nicklaus courses, no so may for Fazio. Here are my to 10 for each:

Nicklaus (no particular order):
Pronghorn
Castle Pines GC
Shoal Creek
Valhalla
Sebonack
Ocean Hammock
Kauai Lagoons-Kiele
Club at Longview
Great Waters
Muirfield Village

Fazio (no particular order)
Black Diamond-Quarry
St. John’s West
Sea Island-Seaside
Victoria National
Galloway National
Forest Creek-North
Forest Creek-South
Wade Hampton
Dallas National
World Woods-Pine Barrens
Had to leave off includes: Pablo Creek, The Quarry, Caves Valley, Eagle Point, Bright’s Creek, Diamond Creek, Aldarra and several others.

Fazio North Carolina only (alphabetical):
Bright’s Creek
Diamond Creek
Eagle Point
Forest Creek-North
Forest Creek-South
Hasentree
Old North State
Pinehurst #4 (Fazio re-design)
Quail Hollow (Fazio re-design)
Wade Hampton
Have not played Mountain Top

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

Good info indeed.

Agree with you on the TF consistency argument -- although from a tournament perspective Jack seems to have the upper hand.

Also, interesting is how little TF has done on the international side of things versus the Bear.

Jim, don't know if you have played Red Ledges in UT and Hokuli'a on the Big Island but they are two of the best Bear layouts I have played -- especially RL. They could easily snare a top ten position from the ones you mentioned for Jack that you have played.

[jim_lewis]

Matt:

I have played neither of the courses you mentioned. I know that both Tom and Jack have done many fine courses that I have not seen, especially Jack since I have seen more than twice as many of Fazio's courses. While I may have seen more of their courses than most, I am still limited in my ability to make the comparison. I will tell you that I had a tough time deciding which of Fazio's courses to leave out of my top ten. There were several others that I might substitute if I did it again. On the otherhand, the 17 courses that I left out of Jack's top ten were not all that special. Just have not seen enough of his best work. I will say that I have been quite impressed with his newer courses that I have seen in recent years (Pronghorn, Sebonack, Ocean Hammock, Longview, 12 Oaks, etc.), more so than much of his earlier work.

BTW, I don't put much stock in the question of whose courses have hosted tournaments. There are a lot of private clubs that are not that interested in hosting national events, at least up until the current economic problems. Now, I imagine most would love the publicity.

Jim

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

The issue is not whether TF has the better overall consistency -- I concede that. But the issue is whether there is a real differentiation of what TF does versus the manner by which JN has evolved over the course of his career.

I would state Jim that you have not played a fuller range of Nicklaus work that has shown his capacity to offer some interesting twists. Two good example are Red Ledges in UT and his work at Outlaw at DM in Scottsdale. Your own admission of that clearly states that.

I mentioned the tournament dimension to illusrate the capacity of TF v JN designs in regards to how strong they can be when set-up accordingly. Many of the TF layouts are wonderful eye-candy layouts and they have clearly captured those folks who enjoy the intrinsic
characteristics they provide. Few TF layouts I have played in the 70+ layouts I have played really have much more than a nominal bite in terms of real demands.

[jeffwarne]

Another great Fazio course that nobody mentions is Sage Valley (in south Carolina just outsie of Augusta).

I can think of six courses (at least) better in the Augusta area.
that might be why nobody mentions it

[Jim Franklin]

Matt -

What do you think of Desert Mountain Renegade? I thought it was terrific with a ton of variety for whatever type of game you have. I have not played Outlaw though.

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

The concept of Renegade was to have a course with the maximum amount of flexibility possible. Jack tried to provide two different set-ups for players of different levels. You'd have the one with less overall yardage and also less demanding pin placements. Then the reverse could happen for those seeking a more "intense" golf experience. I've also seen people play a mix and match of both situations when playing there.

I liked the concept and sometimes I get the impression that if someone other than Nicklaus had done such a thing -- particularly one of the more preferred archies on this site -- the overall concept would have fared better.

Renegade though still accentuates much of the point-to-point golf that Nicklaus favored from that time period years ago.

That's what makes Outlaw so different and so compelling. The course eschews any connection to housing -- has stellar desert views and provides generally for a firm and fast experience from the turf. You can walk the course and there's enough movement on the land that shots can pose a range of exciting angles that allow for a maximum of creativity. Unfortunately, Outlaw doesn't appeal to membes there because they prefer the original style jack created at DM. I truly believe Outlaw is one of the more underappreciated JN courses he has ever designed and is well worth the opportunity to play it when in town.

[PThomas]

Another great Fazio course that nobody mentions is Sage Valley (in south Carolina just outsie of Augusta).

I can think of six courses (at least) better in the Augusta area.
that might be why nobody mentions it

pls name them!

[Jim Franklin]

Jim:

The concept of Renegade was to have a course with the maximum amount of flexibility possible. Jack tried to provide two different set-ups for players of different levels. You'd have the one with less overall yardage and also less demanding pin placements. Then the reverse could happen for those seeking a more "intense" golf experience. I've also seen people play a mix and match of both situations when playing there.

I liked the concept and sometimes I get the impression that if someone other than Nicklaus had done such a thing -- particularly one of the more preferred archies on this site -- the overall concept would have fared better.

Renegade though still accentuates much of the point-to-point golf that Nicklaus favored from that time period years ago.

That's what makes Outlaw so different and so compelling. The course eschews any connection to housing -- has stellar desert views and provides generally for a firm and fast experience from the turf. You can walk the course and there's enough movement on the land that shots can pose a range of exciting angles that allow for a maximum of creativity. Unfortunately, Outlaw doesn't appeal to membes there because they prefer the original style jack created at DM. I truly believe Outlaw is one of the more underappreciated JN courses he has ever designed and is well worth the opportunity to play it when in town.

Thanks Matt, I will certainly give Outlaw a shot next time I am in Scottsdale. I agree though that if someone else had the idea of different pins/greens on the same hole, the concept would be much more appealing. I thought it was cool though.

[Matt_Ward]

The problem many have Nicklaus is that far too often they've only played a smattering of designs and from a consistency standpoint it's very possible you might play something that is less, sometimes far less, than what you get from the consistency side with TF.

Jim;

Outlaw gets little attention here on GCA because too many people think all the courses at DM are one in the same.

Few people have likely played more than 1-2 of the layouts there.

[Andy Troeger]

Having just seen Renegade as well, I was also impressed with the variety created by the two pin locations and the varying distances created with the options present there.

One thing that is pretty remarkable at Desert Mountain is the variety within the courses, even if Nicklaus designed all of them. Chiricahua and Outlaw are also very good, but both are very different from Renegade and each other. Cochise is the other DM course that I've seen, and it doesn't match the quality of other three IMO.

Matt,
I think part of the reason Outlaw doesn't get a lot of appreciation is the difficulty. For a course where it is rather tough to suffer penalty strokes, the course can still be really tough for the average golfer. The better playing members at Desert Mountain probably love it, but those with double digit handicaps probably can't handle it. I like most of the holes and features that Nicklaus incorporated, but a few are overly severe for my tastes and that makes it a "love it or hate it" type layout for many people.

[Mark Pritchett]

Another great Fazio course that nobody mentions is Sage Valley (in south Carolina just outsie of Augusta).

I can think of six courses (at least) better in the Augusta area.
that might be why nobody mentions it

pls name them!

I can't speak for Jeff, but I'll take a guess:

Augusta National Golf Club
Augusta Country Club
Palmetto Golf Club
Champions Retreat Golf Club

Then it starts to get debatable. 

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

Difficulty for Outlaw?

Huh ?

The place allows for a clear ground game option -- plus the need to get into the right position off the tee matters there -- ditto the value of walking the course free of the usual clutter that infects many other AZ courses -- including a few at DM.

Andy, if anything it's the player themselves that don't "get it" regarding Outlaw. They were expecting more of the same point-to-point type golf that litters the Valley of the Sun landscape. In terms of sheer demands a better case can be made that courses like Geronimo and Chicihua are far beyond that of Outlaw. Outlaw allows for the average player to improvise their shots -- not be forced to carry all shots to specific landing areas -- where one can use the ground as a mechanism to move the ball from point A to point B.

Outlaw gets hurt by the fact that so many people within AZ don't get the concept of firm and fast conditions and sadly Nicklaus gets hurt because the nature of the course flies in the face in what people generally want Jack to provide.

You need to spell out for me in much greater details the elements you see as being "overly severe." If you think Outlaw is beyond comprehension and capabilities of the higher handicap players then I believe you have it backwards. It is the lower handicap types who want the predictable 100% outcomes of total fairness and can't stand the nature of unpredictbaility that can occur there because ground game features are part and parcel of what Outlaw provides. Frankly, if anyone who has really played the bulk fo AZ courses doesn't see Outlaw as a top ten layout in the state then they are truly missing out oin many key elements that it so smartly has in spades.