more on Philly CC and Flynn and Alison/Colt

[Joe Bausch]

Months ago I showed a series of articles from late 1924/early 1925 from the Philly newspaper called the North American where many local country clubs were 'reviewed' by author J.E. Ford.  And the one on Philly Country Club was quite interesting.  At this time the club was looking to build another 18 holes and was in the process of buying some land near Spring Mill.  Ford wrote that the plan submitted by Colt and Alison almost certainly would be used by the club.

It was just recently that I found some very interesting articles in the 1925 Evening Public Ledger newspaper penned by author Ted Hoyt.  The April 1925 article below also says in the 2nd paragraph that C&A's plan "has met with the approval of the majority of the members and it will be probably adopted".  Note that the rest of the article gives a fairly detailed description of the C&A plan for the course.



Just a few months later, in July, Hoyt then updates the progress of the new course with another article.  In the 3rd paragraph is this curious info:  "C&A... submitted a plan... and it met with some but not entire approval.  Present plans call for certain readjustments which will make the layout conform to the American idea of what a modern golf course should be."



Then just a few weeks later Hoyt further updated the progress of the course, but now Flynn's name comes into the picture.  It is in paragraph #6 is this fascinating passage:

...Bill Flynn has designed a course which comes pretty close to satisfying him.... A few of the holes are much as they were planned by Allison Colt (!), the English golf architect:  but most of those were thrown completely into the discard

Here is the entire article where the yardages/par for both nines are given:

[TEPaul]

Joe:

Your stagger (chronologicially) of newspaper articles on the design and designer of PCC is pretty fascinating and probably shows some interesting decision changes on the part of the club or whatever.

PCC essentially considers their course to be a Flynn design but the club history book (which is seemingly a bit light on the architectural history of their course) actually mentions that Colt was the designer of the course. Colt, by the way, did not return to North America after 1914 so if PCC was a Colt/Alison design it probably wasn't Colt but Alison.

However, if one compares Flynn's hole by hole design plans offered to the club it does match the way the course was built. And then we should add to that in the early 1920s Alison proposed that Toomey and Flynn form a business partnership with him. On top of that we do have that Alison review of the design of Shinnecock by Flynn that was apparently called for by that club and was massively complimentary and explanatory of Flynn's design of Shinnecock which as we all know was done to Flynn's plans and is the course today.

Personally, I feel those guys were close and if one contends they were competitors it seems like they were pretty friendly about it, perhaps even collaborative.

On top of that we have some letters from Hugh Wilson to P&O in which he mentions Hugh Alison was a most attractive guy, not to mention that it was Wilson who seems to have met with Alison about Pine Valley in the fall of 1920 and just before Alison provided his hole by hole master plan in the context of Carr and Smith "Remembrances" to finish off that course and fix some holes that were problematic or left undone by the sudden death of George Crump.

Good going with those stagger of articles on PCC, Joe!

[Mike Cirba]

Joe,

Just more terrific work....as someone who has always been interested in the architectural historical details of the courses I've played and just others in the region, some long gone, the golf course archeological research you've done has been a Godsend.

Thank you, Indiana Joe(nes)!

[Tom MacWood]

Here is a list of Colt & Alison's American designs and redesigns en Francais.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

That's an interesting list.   Do we know what work they did at Garden City and when?

Also, Joe and I were talking the other day and obviously know about Colt's visit in 1913.   

Do you know if he was in the US prior to then, and when?

Thanks.

[Tom MacWood]

Colt came over in 1911, 1913 and 1914. Colt was at GCGC in 1913 - the same trip he collaborated with Barker in Chicago, designed PVGC and visited Seaview.

[TEPaul]

I'd be very interested to know when that FRENCH   list of Colt and Alison's designs was published. There are a few courses on that list which are an architectural attribution stretch to put it mildly, at least if a list like that fails to mention those Colt and Alison Co collaborated with or at least without mentioning who perhaps ended up doing most of the design work AFTER that list was published.

Never mind----I see that list mentions Philly CC which was in the mid-1920s. In that case for Colt and Alison to claim sole design attribution for the clubs and courses on that list with no qualification pretty much means Colt and Alison were a couple of fairly egregious distorters of fact and apparently knowingly so.

[Mike Cirba]

Colt came over in 1911, 1913 and 1914. Colt was at GCGC in 1913 - the same trip he collaborated with Barker in Chicago, designed PVGC and visited Seaview.

Tom,

How could you give solo credit to Colt for Pine Valley when the historical record is clear that a number of existing holes (1 thru 4, most of 6, 18) had been laid out prior to Colt's visit, and a number of his recommended holes never implemented or wholly altered after his departure?

If ever there was a case for sharing design attribution, this one seems pretty clear cut to me.

[Tom MacWood]

The list was produced July 1924.

[Tom MacWood]

Who said anything about solo credit?

[Mike Cirba]

Who said anything about solo credit?

Tom,

Perhaps I read to much into your post saying that Colt designed Pine Valley.   Sorry if I misunderstood and jumped to the conclusion that you were omitting Crump...

I honestly think we can collectively get much further in our obviously related areas of interest and study if we could work together and drop the personal to and fro.

[TEPaul]

"Tom,

How could you give solo credit to Colt for Pine Valley when the historical record is clear that a number of existing holes (1 thru 4, most of 6, 18) had been laid out prior to Colt's visit, and a number of his recommended holes never implemented or wholly altered after his departure?

If ever there was a case for sharing design attribution, this one seems pretty clear cut to me."


Mike:

Please tell me you aren't asking that man that question seriously.

At this point the actual design attribution and responsiblility has been nailed down and hole by hole in incrediblly specific detail. At this point, pretty much everybody who had any input on the design of that golf course can be credited for precisely what they did and when. At this point I think everybody who contributed significantly pretty much gets the due and attribution they deserve in detail with the possible exception of perhaps PV's one real unsung design hero----Jim Govan!

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

I'm strictly speaking of the timframe during the first six months of 1913, and what was done prior to Colt's visit and what changed after Colt's visit in the final product.

I was reacting to Tom M. stating that Colt "designed Pine Valley", and reading into that statement the omission of others. 

[TEPaul]

Mike:

I know you were. I know exactly what you were saying and I pretty much know exactly why he wrote it that way and for the very reason you questioned it. This stuff has been going on with a couple of contributors on this website in the very same way with the very same courses and architects for well over 7-8 years now. All I can say is I'm so glad we have contributed to proving their implications wrong at pretty much every turn. I've got a whole lot of friends at those clubs and they are glad to see what we've proven too.

[Tom MacWood]

All I can say is I'm so glad we have contributed to proving his implications wrong at pretty much every turn. I've got a whole lot of friends at those clubs and they are glad to see what we've proven too.

Spoken like a true historian.

[TEPaul]

Thanks, that's what they all seem to say.

When I'm feeling magnanimous, which is most of the time, I tell them I probably wouldn't have been inspired to do it if it weren't for some of the informational crap we've seen from some about some architecture and architects through the years of Golfclubatlas.com, and particularly those who curiously have never even been there.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Joe,
What do you make of the articles.

As mentioned, the club's own written history gives much credit to Colt/Alison, and the articles you posted also make note that some of the C/A's holes were still being used. 

Is the club's own history book wrong? That would mean much of the truth was found in other ways, such as in the articles you posted.

....and finally Joe, how much of Flynn's plan do you think was laid right onto Colt and Alison's?
       

[TEPaul]

"Is the club's own history book wrong? That would mean much of the truth was found in other ways, such as in the articles you posted."


We've got a lot of friends in and around PCC and it appears that was the case with that 1980 history book----the researcher/writer may've had limited architectural material documentation at his disposal at the time---like just that first article and not other "assets."

But that was a long time ago and in the interim the club is much more aware of their architectural heritage and evolution not the least reason being the comprehensive research work of Flynn expert Wayne Morrison.

It seems to me the only remaining architectural semi-mystery with PCC is the extent and specifics of Perry Maxwell's internal green recontouring.

To me one of the most intriquing questions about PCC's course is whether its site was the alternative option for MCC to Merion's Ardmore site during MCC's move of its course from Haverford in 1910-11.

[Tom MacWood]

....and finally Joe, how much of Flynn's plan do you think was laid right onto Colt and Alison's?
       

Jim
Thats a very good question and I don't believe anyone knows the answer. I suspect there is more to the story than meets the eye.

[JSlonis]

Based on the card yardage that Joe posted for the original new Philly CC, am I correct to presume that the original clubhouse was located in a much different area? By the yardage and sequence of the holes, it looks as if the current 14th hole was the 1st hole and the 18th hole was what is now the 3rd.  That routing would seem to make the most sense given the holes and yardages listed.

[Mike Cirba]

Based on the card yardage that Joe posted for the original new Philly CC, am I correct to presume that the original clubhouse was located in a much different area? By the yardage and sequence of the holes, it looks as if the current 14th hole was the 1st hole and the 18th hole was what is now the 3rd.  That routing would seem to make the most sense given the holes and yardages listed.

Jamie,

Although I don't know the original clubhouse location, you'd be correct in that the numbering has changed.

Today's 3rd was originally the 18th hole, where Sam Snead took an 8 to lose the US Open by one shot.

[TEPaul]

Jamie:

You have that correct. The original clubhouse was the Spanish style buildings to the right of the current 14th tee. When they relocated the clubhouse the sequencing was changed although the actual holes were pretty much left as they were originally designed. The present 3rd was the original 18th and as you probably know it was never a good idea to mention that hole to Sam Snead.

Here's another incident that has probably become PCC legend. Assuming you know the course pretty well try visualizing the 8th hole. Remember that all-world ball speed kid I was mentioning on here around the 2005 Amateur----Long John Hurley of Nebraska? On that hole he allowed as he had really caught that tee shot after it sailed over the top of hill in outer orbit. When we got up there nobody could find his ball for a while and that was because it was about one step from the left greenside bunker. I asked some spectator if it had hit a sprinker head and he said no it pretty much flew up there but he thought it was some second shot. That hole was playing at around 405.

With this interesting Colt/Alison or Flynn thing on PCC, again, it is worth noting that Alison had previously proposed that Toomey and Flynn form a business partnership with him but that was in the early 1920s. It looks to me like they remained close for quite a long time, and an interesting circumstance just before Flynn's Shinnecock was built is probably another indication of it as is the fact that it was Flynn who oversaw the construction redesign of a few of the PV Alison greens. Not to mention that it seems the Wilson brothers thought a lot of Alison himself and there's an interesting tidbit in the agronomy letters from Alan Wilson on how much he thought of Colt as a world-class architect.

[Jim_Kennedy]

TMac,
You're probably right, on both counts, but there could very well be an existing plan of C/A's. 

You have to wonder about Ted Hoyt. After spending all this time writing a few articles (and Joe pointed this out earlier) he calls Colt and Alison  "Alison Colt, the English golf architect". What was he drinking? How could he correctly identify them in two articles and then combine them in his last?

Any ideas Joe?   

[Joe Bausch]

TMac,
You're probably right, on both counts, but there could very well be an existing plan of C/A's. 

You have to wonder about Ted Hoyt. After spending all this time writing a few articles (and Joe pointed this out earlier) he calls Colt and Alison  "Alison Colt, the English golf architect". What was he drinking? How could he correctly identify them in two articles and then combine them in his last?

Any ideas Joe?   

Nothing I can prove right now, but I would not be surprised if the "Alison Colt" reference was not a Hoyt error but some copy editor mistake.

What do I think is the real architectural origin of the Spring Mill course?  Without having seen club minutes or anything else in their archives, I'm assuming Hoyt's account is close to reality.  I think Alison put together a routing that Flynn tweaked some, perhaps extensively.

I think the writer of the two editions of PCC history is no longer with us.  If I'm wrong, I certainly apologize, but I think she has left this earth.  I borrowed from Wayne or Tom last year the 1990 version of the club history and, IMO, the author must have had a copy of the JE Ford North American article (which says the upcoming Spring Mill course will almost certainly be an Alison/Colt design).  Some of the sentences in that club history book were awfully similar to what Ford wrote way back in 1924/5, if you know what I mean.   

[Tom MacWood]

With this interesting Colt/Alison or Flynn thing on PCC, again, it is worth noting that Alison had previously proposed that Toomey and Flynn form a business partnership with him but that was in the early 1920s. It looks to me like they remained close for quite a long time, and an interesting circumstance just before Flynn's Shinnecock was built is probably another indication of it as is the fact that it was Flynn who oversaw the construction redesign of a few of the PV Alison greens. Not to mention that it seems the Wilson brothers thought a lot of Alison himself and there's an interesting tidbit in the agronomy letters from Alan Wilson on how much he thought of Colt as a world-class architect.

In a letter from Wilson to Oakley in late 1921, Wilson predicted Flynn (not Toomey & Flynn) would become a partner with Alison the following spring, and it does appear Flynn did supervise one or more of Alison's designs (Burning Tree, Chevy Chase, and possibly others). Colt, Mackenzie and Alison's modus operandi was to find a local partner when entering a new territory who was either a construction expert or well connected in golfing circles or both. In 1921 Flynn was better known as a construction man than a golf architect.

In the late 20s Alison was asked to critique Flynn's proposed Shinnecock design not because he was close to Flynn but because he was a well respected.

[Tags:]

Tags: