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Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Design v. Construction
« on: December 18, 2017, 05:52:51 AM »
Is a well-built golf course superior to a well-designed golf course?

I say yes.

Perhaps that's why all the significant work over the past ten years has gone to the Design/Build outfits. You get two for one and often for less expense.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Design v. Construction
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2017, 08:15:14 AM »
There's some university student's major paper/thesis to be written about this, ie how does golf course 'design' change when every top designer knows he'll be the 'builder' as well?
What kind of golf courses get built when designs are not bibles or blueprints but 'first-draft' ideas instead?
When you know that you can change/edit the work in 'production', how does that affect the way you think about 'pre-production'?
If no one else (an outside builder) will be able to misunderstand or mess up your work (the design), how much less obvious or overt will that design likely be?
Conversely, how much less planned and/or bulletproof does a design need to be when you're not worried about ensuring that someone else understands and honours it?
To flip the OP around a bit: I have no idea how much different (and differently regarded) the courses referenced by Kyle would be if Tom D and C&C and Gil etc had sent their plans/designs to outside builders instead of doing it in-house.
That those courses were 'well designed' would likely still be obvious, but (in that alternative universe) would it become clearer what was the 'framework' and what the 'finishing'?

Peter
 
« Last Edit: December 18, 2017, 10:03:17 AM by Peter Pallotta »

David Wuthrich

Re: Design v. Construction
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2017, 09:24:23 AM »

It is the chicken and the egg.


You really can't have one without the other.

Blake Conant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Design v. Construction
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2017, 09:45:47 AM »
can you be more specific about well-built?

Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Design v. Construction
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2017, 10:04:02 AM »
Is a well-built golf course superior to a well-designed golf course?  I say yes.

Perhaps that's why all the significant work over the past ten years has gone to the Design/Build outfits. You get two for one and often for less expense.

I think their design details are superior, but I'm sorry I do not agree about the technical end of their construction. There are times where I see construction details were required to keep something together over the long-term. All I see is rocks and blow outs where I should not. That too is detailing.

I'm not defending my turf on the non-design build because the consultants make the same mistakes too. But I see enough work that needs to be re-done inside a decade or perpetually fixedthat I can't give a free pass on this statement.

If you want things to evolve, then fine, but I don't want to hit from rocks caused by degradation in bunkers ...





« Last Edit: December 18, 2017, 10:07:39 AM by Ian Andrew »
With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Design v. Construction
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2017, 10:26:50 AM »
Blake,

I could, maybe, but for me this is one of those "You-Know-It-When-You-See-It" Litmus tests that exist out there. I think it's more apparent when the design is simple, however. Perhaps it's the feeling that you are still enjoying the golf course despite there being no obvious aesthetic or strategic reason to do so.

I'd start with obvious drainage issues not existing. Holes that drain into the middle of the hole would be an example of "not well-built."

Perhaps I could also offer that shaping blends seamlessly into the aboriginal features.

I could also offer "well-planned" as a significant factor in "well-built."

Ian,

In a way you're touching on an interesting perspective I considered when starting this thread: namely, "when is construction truly over?"
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Design v. Construction
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2017, 01:35:40 PM »

Kyle,


I think one can be well designed (to a degree) without being well built.  For years, many industry folks called Pete Dye courses good designs with sometimes poor construction.  Probably a result of using a lot of younger guys at times.  And, of course, those critiques came from professional golf course builders, so they might be called biased.


And, I believe that part of architecture is taking the creativity, but at some point you do have to make the technical details, like drainage, work. I see a lot of neat conceptual design that is horribly designed for those technical aspects.  I could name a signature architect where there is a 12" catch basin picking up a 72" drain pipe off the development, for instance.  I don't think his team even knew enough to know that is a problem.


And, the architect ought to be responsible somewhat for blending the two.  Take a highly perimeter mounded fairway, when the irrigation is only double row, resulting in dead grass between cart path and fairway?  Design flaw more than build flaw, IMHO.


In many of those cases, the owner may know it when he sees it.....after a few years of operational struggles due to design deficiencies, as Ian notes.


Of course, there are some good paper designs messed up royally by independent contractors.  In those cases, it is typically the responsibility of the Contractor to build to design, but on the other hand, the architect is usually tasked with evaluating how well the contractor follows the plans.


What makes it especially hard is the typical Owner budget scenario.  I have had low budgets, and specified drain pipes for a 2 year storm as a result.  Then, a 10 year storm happens during construction, showing the shortcomings.  The Owner is miffed, but is that a design, construction or budget problem?


Due to budget, I have specified fiber mesh cart paths with no steel, and had contractors give me and the owner a strongly worded letter saying they won't warranty the construction due to "design deficiencies."  I give my owners options, but sometimes value engineering makes them suggest a lower quality product.  Similarly, I know of a $9M renovation that downsized path width from 8 to 7 feet to meet budget.  Could you question how a high end budget had to skimp on one of the main items that make a course playable in bad weather?  Could you ever say it was clearly "wrong?"  (If for some reason, the parties ever went to court, each side could find a ton of witnesses backing up their position)


If you factor in the actual business side of the design-construction-operation, nearly every design and construction quality issue is a reasonable compromise, considering cost.  Thus, I guess it would be hard to put any litmus test on it that would stick.


Cheers.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Design v. Construction
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2017, 01:46:29 PM »
Asking this question in some context to a particular well known course: Mid Pines.
Has the re-work  (re-construction, sandy waste areas & detail re-work) turned the course from a 4 to a 7 without altering the bigger picture "design" (no routing revision, etc)?
Or across the street at PN?
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Design v. Construction
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2017, 06:11:03 PM »
Is a well-built golf course superior to a well-designed golf course?

I say yes.

Perhaps that's why all the significant work over the past ten years has gone to the Design/Build outfits. You get two for one and often for less expense.




Jeff beat me to it, but I was going to point out that this was exactly the big contractors' pitch to clients years ago ... your architect may not be top of the line, but with us behind him, the work will turn out perfectly.


I do agree with Jeff that sometimes we design/build firms could be a bit sloppy with the finish work.  It took me years to get that part under control, partly because we didn't [or couldn't] charge as much for "finish" as we did for "shaping".

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Design v. Construction
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2017, 08:55:01 PM »
Kyle,

I've always been a design/build dude....and I think I know what you are saying but would I be right to say "well built" is usually only accomplished with a good routing.  I've seen courses where all of the top specs were implemented wen it came to drainage. cart paths, greens, irrigation etc but the damn routing still created problems mainly with water etc...
Also, I think what you are saying is sort of like this:  you have two blue blazers on a guy.  One is custom made and fitted and the other is a top of the line brand but just off the rack.  The average person can't tell the difference.  Golf courses are like that....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Josh Stevens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Design v. Construction
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2017, 12:14:55 AM »
Is this not the Royal Melbourne West question? Mackenzie designed it, but Russel built it after Mac had left.  who gets the credit?
Would it be as good had Mackenzie had left it to someone else? - maybe
Would it be as good had Mackenzie never visited and Russel had just done it himself? - no idea

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Design v. Construction
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2017, 10:29:36 AM »

Josh,


If you want to go that way, then what credit does the superintendent get for adding drainage or what not over the years? Most courses initially have less than everything at opening, and much gets added later, usually in house.


As you can note, the industry types here are looking at the question differently than from a pure design standpoint.


Kyle,


Did all the high end business go to design-build firms because of potentially lower cost of that method?  I doubt it.  I think Winter Park (a city owned muni) went that way because the owner believed in that method.  And they believed that because the eventual winning firm was based there, and probably (have no inside knowledge) spent considerable time well before the public Request for Proposal convincing them of that.  (Just as I might, given the chance to pitch my way of things)


I doubt cost is the issue in getting selected for top work, nor do I think clients look that hard at method. In the end, its not who is most competent or experienced, its those who create the perception of being most competent, creative or experienced, sometimes in very specific ways to a particular project that wins the day. 


All the top architects over time have marketed and created that aura ......(thinking Frank Lloyd Wright here.....I have toured a lot of his work, and rarely do I think its all that great, but he had the name, mostly due to self promotion.  Others obviously disagree)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

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