Essex County or The Knoll Club? You choose...

[George_Bahto]

I'll talk to them Pat - problem is they have the outing during the week they count on for $$ ...... The course cannot be subsidized by the town.  I think if early enuf I could talk them into it .  I mean these guys don't even play in the Charles Banks Cup because of the "hosting" problem

how many?  50 guys?

I would like to see that

[Matt_Ward]

George, you do raise a good point -- despite the considerable architectural elements included -- The Knoll / West does have a b-z time of it with regular play. No doubt they try to cram as many outings and the like into the place.

Seriously, I think it would help to have a wider range of people play there and if you communicate with me I can forward to you what I am suggesting.

One final thing -- George, can you highlight what, if anything, was done with the previous poor drainage that was a routine occurence in the area behind the 6th green and the entire length of the 7th fairway.

thanks ...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt Ward,

That's an interesting point.

Many years ago, and I mean MANY years ago, that was never a problem.

I wonder if it's due to development and treatment plants in the nearby area

[George_Bahto]

The 7th fairway is the lowest part of the property and was always a problem. We found Banks' old fairway drainage lines, unplugged them (then they worked pretty well) - we added more and now there is no problem in the area of 6-grn and 7-fairway

When I first played there in the 70's, after it went public, for nearly 7 years there was no grass to speak of on the 7th fairway = like, pick up you ball and find a tuft of grass within 10'

Here is the basic problem for people playing the course. We have and A and a B membership (if you are a "B" you're going to have a problem getting on). We cannot turn anyone down basically because the property purchase was half paid for by the NJ Green Acres program.

We cannot get subsidy funds from the town of Parsippany (by law) so the club has to be self supporting - hence the outings during the week. So I can't tell the administration things like: "Muccci would like to have an event of sorts here and it will give the course more publicity", etc  .........  THEY DON'T WANT ANY MORE PEOPLE JOINING so there is no leverage to be applied in that manner.

That was one of the problems I had trying to get the club and the town to put up funds for restoring the course - they had too many members now - why do anything??  ..... it's like Madison Square Garden - the place is full regardless how bad the NY Ranger(-ette) hockey team is      (sorry, couldn't resist that one   )

[Matt_Ward]

George:

Good clarification on the operational side of things.

My main concern because many on the management side only see the course as a cash cow -- irrespective of what his done architecturally. There are those folks in NJ who would simply play with holes cut in the ground and NO real design features to speak of.

The sad plight of The Knoll is that it became embroiled with local government to start with.

Here's a place that likely would have flourished over the years if it had remained a private club with top tier group that really understood it's genesis.

Congrats George for what you have done thus far -- looking forward to playing it and seeing firrsthand all the elements you mentioned.

Last question - are all the back tees you referenced now in play for the 2010 season ?

[Jay Flemma]

Please tell us more about the A & B memberships...how do they work and how much do they cost?

[Matt_Ward]

What would really be interesting would be to take the first three holes at The Knoll / West and have them become part of the first three holes at ECCC. If that were done -- you'd have one stellar layout.

Another good question -- which of the two has the more demandind closing hole. Many would say Knoll West given what George has done but ECCC's closing hole is vastly underrated by many people.

[George_Bahto]

I think the 18th at both courses are about the same in difficul, tee to green - but the 18th at The Knoll has a superb tilted green that has huge swinging putts

Matt - YOU cannot play the new tee on 18 at The Knoll until I see you shoot 74 from the blues !!!!!!   

Matt said: "My main concern because many on the management side only see the course as a cash cow -- irrespective of what his done architecturally"

It isn't as bad as you have been making it out to be ........  itz working fine these days - best it has been working since the days of Mr Aiello and his friends

we just have a lot of members and the price is excellent

our situation changes when a new township admin comes in - meaning, whether they are into golf or not

After all the positive press we've gotten over the past couple of years  I think we will not have a problem of any kind for a long time. What I need is a maintenance crew who cares!!!!!!!!!! (itz much better - they're finally "getting it"

example: "guys, could you get the green speeds up to at least 9.5?? - this is like putting in pudding"  They (He) lost a green a couple years ago and has been very leery since


Jay - gotta go out - tell you about the A & B soon

[Cliff Hamm]

Took the liberty of pasting this from the website.    At those prices no wonder they need outings. Has got to be the best deal in the metro NY area.
 
KNOLL WEST MEMBERSHIP

Interested in becoming a member of the Knoll West?

There is a waiting list so the faster you sign up, the faster you can become eligible for membership.

Contact Us today!

Individual Membership Fees
 
CLASS “A” MEMBERSHIP – LIMITED TO A QUOTA OF 700 – playing privileges anytime the course is available (on weekdays as outings permit).
DUES                     TWP RESIDENT*               N J RESIDENT**                OUT OF STATE**
INDIVIDUAL                       600.00                                 1200.00                                 1800.00
 
CLASS “B” MEMBERSHIP – LIMITED TO A QUOTA OF 300 – playing privileges limited to weekdays when available (as outings permit) and on week ends after 5 pm.
DUES                     TWP RESIDENT*               N J RESIDENT**               OUT OF STATE**
INDIVIDUAL                       400.00                                  800.00                                 1200.00
 
TOURNAMENT & HANDICAP FEE (MANDATORY CHARGE) $35.00 PER PERSON
MUST BE ADDED TO MEMBERSHIP FEE WHEN REMITTING DUES.
 
*PARSIPPANY APPLICANTS MUST PROVIDE PROOF OF LEGAL RESIDENCY WITH APPLICATION.
*TOWNSHIP MEMBERSHIP INCLUDES REGISTRATION FEE AT THE KNOLL EAST COURSE.
**PAYS TOWNSHIP RESIDENT RATES AT THE KNOLL EAST COURS

[Matt_Ward]

Cliff:

There are a few other places that provide good deals.

The counties of Monmouth, Somerset and Morris in NJ provides a good selection of different layouts and their fee structures are quite solid to attract different people.

The real issue when playing Knoll -- either of the two although as I said before you play the East only because you are utterly desperate or clueless - is that the amount of players on the course in most instances can mean a real crawl.

George B:

Looking forward to playing the course from the "new" tips.

Yes, the debate between the two closing holes at Knoll / West and ECCC makes for a lively discussion. Sadly, so many people who are raters and the like have paid little or no attention to what you and Gil have done to ECCC.

George, that was my point previously -- the local politics has always been a thorn in the side of things. If the folks at the top "get it" then more positive features can happen -- but the slightest turn of events and it concerns me that all of the items that went forward from years ago can just as easily return to the surface.

Nonetheless, congrats on spearheading such an effort -- no doubt Knoll / West has much to offer and any person who comes to the state should make an attempt to play it in 2010 and see firsthand what's been mentioned here.

[Jay Flemma]

Yeah, but Matt do those counties have public courses anywhere near as terrific as the Knoll?

[Matt_Ward]

Jay:

You ever hear of Hominy Hill ? The RTJ layout, started as an exclusive private club but fortunately Henry Mercer saw fit through his wife's actions to sell the course to Monmouth County.

One of the very few courses to have hosted BOTH the men's and women's USGA Public Links championships. Let me also point out that the Frank Duane design at Howell Park is also quite solid.

Have you ever played Flanders Valley (Morris County) -- also one of the few that have done what Hominy has done. Let me also point out the likes of Sunset Valley -- one of the really few Hal Purdy designs that features a back nine that is well done given the tight squeeze of land it has and how it concludes with a stretch of holes that is quite solid.

Check out Somerset County when you can -- the likes of Neshanic Valley is well done -- ditto the qualities of Quail Brook in Franklin Twsp -- the final two holes there are easily as good as any 17th and 18th holes among all public courses in NJ.

The taxpayer side of things is also in fine form with the likes of Ocean County at Atlantis in Tuckerton. The first George Fazio design and it is rarely mentioned on this site. Just a marvelous layout that with a bit of TLC could be right up there with any that I have just mentioned.

Jay, you say The Knoll is "terrific" and I don't doubt its potential. But I want to see all of the elements in fine form this season. Hats off again to George B -- he has the patience of a saint in having to deal with people who far too often are more interested in cramming people on the course and seeing so little of its greatness that Banks provided.

[Jay Flemma]

I will never go back to Hominy Hill because the one time I went there, not only did they have eight temp greens and 14 temp tees, but they didn't tell me before I came (yes I called them to ask for directions and for a tee time, but they wanted the full rate of $62 despite the deplorable conditions.  Screw that.

[Ron Csigo]

Jay,

Hominy Hill is notorious for not alerting golfers of the temporary green situation and they won't knock a nickel off the posted green fees.  Quite annoying.  Otherwise, all the Monmouth County courses are quite good.

In addition to all the courses that Matt mentioned, Morris County also has Berkshire Valley which is a Roger Rulewich design.  A bit quirky, but there are some fun holes.

[Jay Flemma]

Yeah, and they were rude about it to boot.  The guy in the pro shop said, "Hey! We gotta stay open and pay our people.  You think they get a pay cut because we have temp greens and tees.  You don't like it, go play Pine Barrens"...so I did.  Then I wrote an article about it.

You'd have thought he was an extra on that MTV mess Jersey Shore

[Matt_Ward]

Jay:

It's important to separate the stupidity of management versus the qualities of the course.

I know if people who have treked to Bethpage Black on a given day and found out upon arriving the course was closed that day. Should the ills of management be the reason to give a thumbs down to the course itself. I think not.

The reality is Jay -- Hominy Hill is one of the better RTJ courses one can play and it has a solid array of top tier holes for the non-affiliated player to handle. Go back when things are different and if your eyes / mind are open you will see what I am talking about.

Like I said -- the place had the good to host both the men's and women's National Public Links events. The pedigree and teeth of the course are most certainly there.

I don't excuse rudeness that you faced -- but I also expect someone like yourself Jay to see beyond that and look at what course provides. You owe yourself another visit when the conditions are present.

Ron:

I certainly made a conscious decision to leave off Berkshire Valley. It has one of the most bizarre opening sequences of holes -- the silly idea of using the cliff edge to the right of the 1st hole means the insertion of a local rule that prevents players from playing a shot that goes to the right of the 1st hole. I understand the reasons behind it --- but it's nothing more than a major contrivance.

The design does get better deeper into the round -- but the first five holes are a forced architectural element given the nature of the terrain itself.

One quick tip-off for any person going there -- check out the layout of the practice area -- you can get a sore neck trying to watch your balls fly up the ski slope there.

[Jay Flemma]

Matt, everyone else I know - both writers and players - say Hominy can't hold a candle to The Knoll.  The Knoll has better greens, the Knoll has better hole designs, the Knoll is a nicer place, the Knoll blows the pants off Hominy Hill.  And yes I can hold the stupidity of management against them.  Just like I can choose to go play Bandon instead of Pebble beach for vacation because bandon is better and cheaper, so to can I make a similar decision about The Knoll and Hominy.  You sound like Turning stone casino..."we held the club pro championship, so we're as good as Pinehurst!"

There's a difference between "we are closed every monday" and "we're giving you half a golf course at full price."

[Ron Csigo]

Matt - I tried hard to leave out Berkshire Valley but couldn't     I agree, the first four holes starting out at Berkshire Valley are extreme and forced given the landscape.  Hit it right and you're ball goes down a cliff.  Hit it left and your OB.  The golf course gets better starting at the 5th hole. 

[Matt_Ward]

Jay:

Wait a second partner ... you say Hominy Hill can't "hold a candle" to Knoll / West. Have you ever played Hominy Hill when in the usual conditions it presents itself ?

You bitched and moan about the ill-mannered treatment and I concur with you on that front but how many rounds have you ever played there? I've played bunch of times on both of the courses mentioned and while I have huge amount of respect for Knoll / West it remains to be seen with all the elements that George mentioned to be played this year and see firsthand what's been done.

Jay, I know Jersey golf fairly well -- better than most I might add.

Hominy Hill is one of RTJ's best designs -- especially when you factor in what Monmouth County does there and for the other courses within their system. Have you ever played Howell Park -- or the 36-hole complex at Charleston Springs ?

I did mention Somerset County and the 27-holes at Neshanic Valley are quite good -- ditto what I said about Quail Brook in Franklin Twsp. I also mentioned the George Fazio layout at Atlantis in Tuckerton.


Jay, I love the Knoll but the competition is out there in the state from other locales.

[Matt_Ward]

Ron:

Morris County used to be one of the real leaders in taxpayer-provided golf.

I'd give the edge now to both Somerset and Monmouth Counties.

No doubt a totally revamped Knoll / West really helps matters plenty for the non-affiliated golfer.

BV to me is another place to play -- it's not compelling save for a few holes of note. If someone is in that area of NJ I'd recommend heading to nearby Milton and playing Bowling Green -- a very underrated Cornish design.

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