[Ulrich Mayring]

I hate the European Tour and what they did to the Ryder Cup. They turned it into an unbelievably fake event that has absolutely nothing to do with golf and everything to do with sucking the last penny out of one of the great traditions of the sport. I fully support the players wanting to be paid for playing, because that would at least be honest: show the world that it's just another tournament. I'd applaud every player making a statement by boycotting the event altogether.

It is completely laughable that the Americans, who are supposed to be the evil turbo-capitalists of the world, are showing us Europeans, who are supposed to be the artsy types, what the Spirit of the Game is all about. Merion 2013 is a bold statement, a smaller event, held with some restraint and for the good of the game. Chapeau USGA and USA.

That being said, the 2018 Ryder Cup will be either in Sweden or in Germany. While the Swedes think they are the favorites, what with so many Tour players and golf being the #2 sport in the country, they seem overconfident to me. They are at a distinct disadvantage with already having a completed golf course, which already belongs to someone and that someone is not the European Tour. Spain and most notably Germany are ready and willing to prostitute themselves completely for the Ryder Cup. They have a blank site and will build on it whatever the European Tour wants and turn the final product over to them. And on top of that they will pay money and I believe in that department nobody is better endowed than Germany.

So there is my prediction. Germany will pay more than Sweden. The Ryder Cup 2018 will be an uninspired, professionally run event, making a lot of money for the Tour and leaving scorched earth behind in Germany.

Ulrich

[Matt_Ward]

Adrian:

To the credit of the USGA -- the US Open is going to Merion in 2013 - and that will mean LESS revenue for the association. Geeze, what a novel approach -- maybe the PGA of America and the organizing folks across the pond would think in doing this -- every now and then.

The issue is not about mega $$ bids but there are courses where the game's traditions can be satisfied. The Belfry was used simply to line the pockets of the sponsoring group. I've played Celtic Manor and frankly it's nothing more than a Doak 5 and I'm being kind generous.

The Ryder Cup would benefit even more from hosting such an old time layout once every 20 years. There's still plenty of $$ availabl;e and the game would benefit from it.

[Alex Miller]

Just took some google earth measurements of Bro Hof Slott GC.

Out: 4155 yards, apparent par 36
In:   3655 yards, apparent par 36 w/ back to back par 5s (12,13) and par 3s (16 (260 yards),17)

Total: 7810 par 72


ummmm.... so yeah. 

[Dean Stokes]

Adrian:

To the credit of the USGA -- the US Open is going to Merion in 2013 - and that will mean LESS revenue for the association. Geeze, what a novel approach -- maybe the PGA of America and the organizing folks across the pond would think in doing this -- every now and then.

The issue is not about mega $$ bids but there are courses where the game's traditions can be satisfied. The Belfry was used simply to line the pockets of the sponsoring group. I've played Celtic Manor and frankly it's nothing more than a Doak 5 and I'm being kind generous.

The Ryder Cup would benefit even more from hosting such an old time layout once every 20 years. There's still plenty of $$ availabl;e and the game would benefit from it.

Matt,

Who cares if Celtic Manor is only a Doak 5? Not many of the fans that will pay to go and watch and probably none of the players either.

Please tell us how playing at an old time layout will benfit the game and also how the game will benefit from such a move. Thanks.

[Matt_Ward]

Dean:

Look -- you don't seem to understand something -- the average person watching or being on hand for a Ryder Cup will NOT CARE one iota about the design of the course. I understand that. Frankly, that's elementary. The issue is whether such an event SHOULD be held at places that are merely in place because of the deep pockets of the person(s) sponsoring them for consideration.

Dean, you ever hear of the word "tradition." How bout those layouts that formed the backbone of golf's development be considered provided they still have the goods.

Do you think the USGA's decision to go to Merion is a wrong one ?

I'm thrilled to see that the USGA decided to forego the e-z $$ windfall they would have gotten by going to a place that can handle 50,000 people on-site plus all the space and cash corporate tents would provide. The tradition and qualities of Merion's design are well worth the sacrifice as people who have only heard about the course will see it firsthand challenge the game's greatest players.

When you say about what the players think -- I can recall many positive comments they have made when playing at classic designed courses versus the new fangled varieties we see today.

The Belfry was a boring layout -- that golf entertainment happened there says little to me -- that same entertainment would have happened elsewhere too given the nature of the matches and the skills of the players involved.

[Dean Stokes]

Matt,

Our opinions differ on this event, and that's fine - that's the beauty of this world.

I have to chuckle at the use of the word "tradition" however. Yes I have heard of it. I grew up playing golf in a traditional manner. It's just that I thought that word had all but disappeared in this great game. What with massive headed golf clubs, balls that fly to the moon and the whole world riding golf carts to play a walking game. Tradition - please.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Matt I totally disagree. Tradition... I say tripe, tradition is something concotted by the pickle heads...No one really cares, remember just one thing The Ryder Cup is a commercial event, it wont be any better played at Muirfield than it would played at GolfPlatz8000.Com, in fact it might even be worse, the Ryder cup wants risk reward par 5s, drivabe par 4s, and water hazards inabundance espically abutting greens 17 and 18...thats what the masses want, they dont want the things we like on the site. You must think outside the square, this site caters for a very minority opinion. The ryder cup is cash cow, it spawns great wealth throughout the golf community, only a fool would cut the suppy.

[PThomas]

Dean:

Look -- you don't seem to understand something -- the average person watching or being on hand for a Ryder Cup will NOT CARE one iota about the design of the course. I understand that. Frankly, that's elementary. The issue is whether such an event SHOULD be held at places that are merely in place because of the deep pockets of the person(s) sponsoring them for consideration.

Dean, you ever hear of the word "tradition." How bout those layouts that formed the backbone of golf's development be considered provided they still have the goods.

Do you think the USGA's decision to go to Merion is a wrong one ?

I'm thrilled to see that the USGA decided to forego the e-z $$ windfall they would have gotten by going to a place that can handle 50,000 people on-site plus all the space and cash corporate tents would provide. The tradition and qualities of Merion's design are well worth the sacrifice as people who have only heard about the course will see it firsthand challenge the game's greatest players.

When you say about what the players think -- I can recall many positive comments they have made when playing at classic designed courses versus the new fangled varieties we see today.

The Belfry was a boring layout -- that golf entertainment happened there says little to me -- that same entertainment would have happened elsewhere too given the nature of the matches and the skills of the players involved.

well said Matt

[Dean Stokes]

Yep well said Matt. I am absolutely certain that the players could have stood on the 10th tee, let's say at Ganton, Wentworth, Sunningdale, Royal St Georges or St andrew's for instance, and you would have the same level of excitement as when they stood on the 10th tee at The Belfry and pulled driver out. Ok.

PS. just so you remember - I would much rather play any of the courses mentioned above before I play the Belfry. I would also much rather see a 72 strokeplay event on any of the above before The Belfry. Just as I would much rather play Shinnecock, Pinehurst or Merion before I played Kiawah, TPC Sawgrass or PGA West. However, I would rather see the Ryder Cup on one of the latter three courses for entertainment in matchplay. Comprende?

[Matt_Ward]

Dean:

Here's what you said again, "I have to chuckle at the use of the word "tradition" however. Yes I have heard of it. I grew up playing golf in a traditional manner. It's just that I thought that word had all but disappeared in this great game. What with massive headed golf clubs, balls that fly to the moon and the whole world riding golf carts to play a walking game. Tradition - please."

It's e-z to sport the cynical retorts about such things as tradition. But frankly, golf, more than just about any other game, ties itself to tradition as a key backbone to where the game was and where it is today. The USGA understood that -- and selected a return to Merion even though its bottom line would be impacted.

You spout out about massive headed clubs, and balls that fly to the moon and the world riding carts. Let's look at each shall we -- clubheads have been maxed out to a certain size because the physics for even larger heads would not help golfers. Ditto the idea about balls flying even further and further. Check out the recent distances gained off the tee since the introduction of such balls like the Pro VI and you'll see the gains are not happening. When you talk about cart usage -- yes -- there are people using them. You also have facilities that are seeing clear interest from being walking only facilities -- such as Bandon Dunes.

Dean, the Ryder Cup should think of an inclusion of a tradiitional site at least once every 20 years -- that's not an imposition but a rebirth and rekindling of what makes golf the grand game that it is. When you forget or eliminate tradiiton -- especially at the highest of all levels -- you abandon its soul.

Adrian:

Thanks for telling me what I already know. I appreciate the 101 level reply from you that the Ryder Cup is a commercial enterprise.
Really? Geeze, thanks Adrian for filling me in on such a brainstorm on your part. The point you seem to forget is that I believe those at the top of the pyramid have a responsibility for trying to weave the elements of commercialism and tradition in some sort of fashion from time to time. The USGA did that with Merion's selection for the US Open in 2013 when other more profitable venues could easily have been added.

What made Augusta so grand is that it relished the past traditions and still stayed contemporary - that is until Hootie and the gang that could not shoot straight bastardized the place with all the "improvements."

The Ryder Cup will likely forever eschew doing anything close to what and others are suggesting. I am far from naive but I am also not thrilled that classic designs can so easily and quickly be jettisoned. Simple as that.

Dean:

You may not realize this -- but many of the top players have an appreciation for old time designs -- see the fanfare they used to offer when Westchester CC was the long time home of the Buick Classic on the PGA Tour. See what they always say about Riviera and for places like Pebble Beach, etc, etc.

I am well aware of the incessant and insatiable appetite that the PGA's on both sides of the pond view the matches. The average person is not the barometer by which I judge matters -- these are the same people who view McDonald's as cuisine too. Money drives professional sports but as I said before -- the USGA doesn't get enough credit on the Merion front -- it's just heartening to see a sports organization push an alternate every so often so that the game itself doesn't forever lose its connection to the past.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Ulrich You make sense to me. Go Germany and may the Euros flow to those silly enough to go watch the event. I enjoyed playing this summer. Cheers Tiger

[Stuart Hallett]

A move away from these "Target Golf" mediocre courses would be great, but it's not going to happen.
I personally think that Sweden is a logical choice given the sites available & the contribution to pro golf over recent years.

Here in France , the federation is dreaming, and I say DREAMING of hosting the Ryder Cup, but where ? Of course, they insist on Le National which is owned by them, no coincidence why they play the Open there every year. The course is being stretched each year and they're running out of space. Other options could be Les Bordes (big money & major works already underway there), Medoc (lot's of potential but maybe a bit too bland for this event), Chantilly (ideal for purists, but unrealistic choice given past venues), or a new course made to measure.

Germany is a good outside bet.
Ultimately, the public just want a match & the organizers want bags of money. Sadly, classic golf courses don't come very high up in the equation.

[Adam Lawrence]

The Ryder Cup will be going to Sweden and it will be at Bro Hof.

The perfect golf course for the perfect commercial event.

http://www.brohofslott.se/en/show.php

I think Brian is very probably right, and, although I have a few issues with Bro Hof, I hope he is. The Swedes will make a spectacular event with the biggest crowds in history, and Björn Örås, the owner, deserves it for the work he has put in.

Other bidders include France (they want to take it to Golf National), Germany (to a new course, several proposals have been made) and Spain (as Alfredo says, to a new course to be built outside Madrid). There is no chance whatsoever of it going to a classic venue, the event is the PGA's only significant cash cow.

[Andrew Hastie]

The Dutch are also making a run for the 2018 event and there is a custom make course already being built call: www.thedutch.nl
One of the negative things about the Dutch bid is that they haven't had anybody that has actually played a Ryder Cup!
On the positive side there is plenty of money to support the bid! http://www.businessandgolf.nl/

[Ulrich Mayring]

The Ryder Cup is a commercial event, because it was made a commercial event. Traditionally, it wasn't. And the commercialisation has accelerated in the last decade, that is why many people speak out against the Ryder Cup today, who thought it was a fantastic event ten years ago.

I don't see anyone but Sweden and Germany in the running and the Swedes are probably too self-respecting to prostitute themselves to the point that will be required.

Ulrich

[Mark Chaplin]

Germany - do not forget the Langer effect.

[Andrew Hastie]

I believe in Germany there is in-fighting about which course should host the Ryder Cup!

[Brian Phillips]

The Swedes deserve the Ryder Cup more than any other European country at the moment.  It will be a fantastic event and the crowds will be huge.

The Ryder Cup should NEVER go to a course that is private. 

Joe Public should always be given the chance to play the same course as the Ryder Cup players.

[Sean_A]

It is a great pity the Ryder Cup in Europe has gone such a money grubbing route, but I suspect it is the main source of income for the Tour.  That said, I think the American players were right in wanting a piece of the pie to be used for a donation.  If Europe is gonna continually chase the highest bidder the players should get a chunk to make a donation.  It could be something very basic such as a cap and if the Tour makes over the cap the players grab some of the money for donation purposes.  If something isn't done, the Cup will never again go back to a classic venue because there isn't a club in GB&I which can come anywhere near competing bid-wise with a Mr Money Bags.  

On the other hand, it can be wonderful to use new venues and once in a while we may hit on a truly great course.  Although, from my perspective, the Cup could lose some of its luster when it is played outside of USA/GB&I.

Ciao

[Andrew Hastie]

Sean,

Did the Cup in Spain have any less atmosphere then one  in  GB&I! From all I have heard it was a great event in a Golf Crazy Spain.

IMO As long as there is one person in the team from the host country it will be a success.
And it would be great for the sport in Europe.

Andrew

[Mark Chaplin]

Sean - the RC is now Europe v USA unfortuantely the European tour has extended it's boundaries somewhat. What if Dubai, China or
Singapore offered silly money to host the event as they are on the European tour. That could kill it for me.

What time does it get dark in south Sweden in September? I cannot see a drastic move in the dates.

[Ulrich Mayring]

I believe in Germany there is in-fighting about which course should host the Ryder Cup!

Nope, they held a Ryder Cup style beauty contest as well and the winner is an empty field in Bavaria. The other contestants were existing golf courses and two of them actually pretty good (Greeneagle and Faldo's course). But the empty field had the advantage that it could offer Bernhard Langer a design job.

Ulrich

[Emil Weber]

I believe in Germany there is in-fighting about which course should host the Ryder Cup!

Nope, they held a Ryder Cup style beauty contest as well and the winner is an empty field in Bavaria. The other contestants were existing golf courses and two of them actually pretty good (Greeneagle and Faldo's course). But the empty field had the advantage that it could offer Bernhard Langer a design job.

Ulrich

Then let's get Bernhard to have a bit of a conversation with Coore and Doak!

[Ulrich Mayring]

I believe the Ryder Cup LLC is going to "strongly suggest" to use European Golf Design.

Ulrich

[Sean_A]

Sean,

Did the Cup in Spain have any less atmosphere then one  in  GB&I! From all I have heard it was a great event in a Golf Crazy Spain.

IMO As long as there is one person in the team from the host country it will be a success.
And it would be great for the sport in Europe.

Andrew

Andrew

I wasn't living here when the RC was at Valerrama.  But just from my experience of living here the past 11.5 years, there is certainly less vibe when the event is held in the USA.  We must remember that on this board the folks are freaks.  I suspect that what made Valderrama special was the pull of Seve AND the huge presence of UK golfers who play in Spain.  There is no way you could call Spain a golf mad country - it is the touristas that make up the bulk of the interest and the sole reason for the boom of golf in Spain - its a business.   Ever watch the Spanish pro events on tv?  There is nobody there! 

Chappers

Yes, it is Europe V USA, but the core of the interest in this event has always been GB&I - even if we include the States.  GB&I fans have always stood by this event even when they knew their side hadn't a hope in hell of winning.  From my perspective, I would say for everytime the Euro Tour want to host outside of GB&I they should host at a classic club in GB&I. 

Ciao

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