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Don_Mahaffey

Re: Hiring a Construction Super and Beyond
« Reply #50 on: January 18, 2010, 08:51:21 AM »
Steve,
Some of what we do just requires us to be at the course. Grow in is one of those times. I don't mind putting in the time as long as I get some time away. What has always worked for me is to try and schedule it where I may need to be on site for 3-4 weeks straight, then I get away for a week. For me and my family we are so busy with jobs and activities that getting away for a few days at a time is a real treat. We're fortunate that we have family in two of the nicer resort type areas of the US and depending on the time of year we can escape to one place or the other. That's what works for us and I've yet to have a boss that didn't appreciate the time I put in and the fact I need to recharge. For me the only way to really get away from work is to literally get away.

I do think we supers get judged by some based on how many hours we put in which is one of the reasons some think it's better to have a young hungry guy. I don't have a magic wand, but if I did I'd wave it and make it so we are judged on the results we provide, not our age, or who we know, or where we interned, or what school we attended. Unfortunately that isn't going to happen and I'm sure ours isn't the only profession where evaluating our work gets skewed by so many insignificant factors.  

I will say this; it’s an employer’s world right now with the job market being so tight. Its head down and nose to the grind stone until things turn around.

ps...are you going to SD?
« Last Edit: January 18, 2010, 08:53:15 AM by Don_Mahaffey »

JSPayne

Re: Hiring a Construction Super and Beyond
« Reply #51 on: January 18, 2010, 09:00:57 AM »
Ian,

You're battling for the two extremes, leaving no "gray" area, when we all know there is some and that's where the majority of us try and live. You claim there's either the "CEO/delegator" guy who holds as an absolute that he will only work his 40 hours, take weekends off and never be on site when needed because he wants to do something else, or there's the guys that step up on day one, say I'll be here before I'll eat, sleep, take care of my family or otherwise because I am the most passionate, hard-working guy you'll ever find and I love and want this job. While there may be each of these kinds of people, I don't think Steve or Bradley or anyone else is advocating for one or the other.

Look, every superintendent, construction/grow-in/maintenance or otherwise, knows when you sign up for the job that we deal with plants, and nature, both of which can be wildly unpredictable. We know there are some days, even days in a row, that we'll have to be on site for 10, 12, 14+ hours a day because conditions and situations deem it necessary. But there's also nothing wrong in knowing when the good days are, when everything goes right, all is in good hands, things are right on or ahead of schedule, and you can take a breath, go get a beer, have dinner with the kids, and sleep in a little the next morning. It may not happen often, but I agree with Steve that if you are a good manager, you hope it happens more than the days you find yourself running around like a chicken with your head cut off.

Requirement #1 of any superintendent is to be an expert agronomist. You've got to be damn good at growing grass. THAT'S your job. But following very VERY close behind is the ability to be an excellent manager. And that means so many things. It means knowing how to hire and train the right people so you can have confidence and faith in their abilities and so you don't have to be looking over their shoulder all day, or feel you absolutely need to be there if there's a project they need to work a little overtime on. It's about letting all the subs know the chain of communication, and letting your assistant, or foreman, handle the majority of the minute decisions and details so that you can also try to accomplish all your other duties besides managing construction. It means being good at purchasing, managing finances, timing deliveries and subcontracted projects so things run smoothly and efficiently. It also means knowing your limits, and avoiding burnout, and making sure you're not making crucial decisions on little to no sleep or on a stomach that hasn't seen food in 24 hours.

I agree with both of you. I agree more with Steve because the management style he describes is what I aspire to. I'm not there yet, because it takes a lot of time and work to build a crew you can trust and is well trained. And it takes time to know your job and the property so well that very little takes you by surprise. There are days I work dawn till dusk, but there are days I go home a bit early too. I don't believe anyone should live "on the extremes." But you are right as well in that construction and rennovation etc. are entirely different beasts, and do demand alot more attention, forethought, rapid response to problems and "babying" of the grass. But regardless, the point needs to be made that no super should ever be measured by the hours he puts in, but by the quality of his product. And that this old idea of "if you're not living, breathing, eating, and dying for the grass and the grass only you're a crappy or unfit super" needs to die. I absolutely LOVE my job and everything working on a golf course entails, but it will never be MY LIFE. A very large piece, probably the piece that I will spend the most time in my life absorbed in, but that does not make it the most important, and I never intend to treat it as such nor hope others measure me by that and that alone.
"To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing it's best, night and day, to make you everybody else means to fight the hardest battle any human being can fight; and never stop fighting." -E.E. Cummings

Steve Okula

Re: Hiring a Construction Super and Beyond
« Reply #52 on: January 18, 2010, 02:16:39 PM »
Ips...are you going to SD?

Sorry, it's too far away his year. Maybe I'll see you next time further east.

Steve
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Ian Larson

Re: Hiring a Construction Super and Beyond
« Reply #53 on: January 18, 2010, 03:16:04 PM »
What I am referring to is not about maintenance. Its about being involved in the construction and growing in a golf course. To keep this thread on track with hiring a construction and beyond....I dont think its too much to ask of a superintendent that is brought on from the beginning to put in the same amount of hours as his crew and the rest of the guys dedicated to getting the project done quickly. And if there is a guy that is interviewed and hired for the job from the beginning there is no asking. The guy that fully commits himself to the job no matter how many hours is going to get the job over the guy who will be available by phone or find the assistant if theres a problem. And thats not me saying the guy is being evaluated by the amount of hours worked. In the beginning its about the amount of dedication to the project. If a super is interviewing for a new construction and grow-in with the preconceived notion that he can get away with delegating his time and responsibility down, the project manager will want the guy that will be there as much as him and everyone else on site.

For a career grow-in super you guys dont have a case. Theres no place for CEO-delegating types on the construction site for reasons such as working less. For a super that is hired to come on at construction and do the grow-in and stay on as the superintendent.....you gotta be effing kidding me that you would come on to the project and not to be able to 100% commit your time and make sacrifices for a year!!! God forbid you dont have weekends off or you miss the Memorial Day, 4th of July and Labor day holidays. You've been handed the reigns to a new golf course to settle down at if you wish and for 1 year you cant go balls to the wall? Thats ridiculous.

For all the projects Ive been involved with the super is by far not the big man on campus calling all the shots. The project manager, project foreman and all the contractors are dictating what, where and when the super does. And the super is scheduling off of their direction and progress. And in my experience if the super would come in while all of these guys are willing to bust their ass for a year and the super says he is not fully committed because he needs weekends and evenings with the family....the project manager is going to run him off the site and request someone thats willing to put in the time he is. Or he will just make the assistant his go to guy. If someone wants to be involved with a construction and grow-in they need to accept the fact that there days off might be Sunday and rain days. And if there are days off because of rain expect to be working till sundown everyday when work resumes. If thats not up your alley...dont get into construction and grow-in.

As far as the CEO type super...coming from an agricultural background that personally is not why I got into the field nor would I ever aspire to. And in this economy we are seeing many supers losing their jobs to younger, cheaper assistants to meet the bottom line and just get the job done. Weve also seen very high profile clubs where money is not as important and CEO types are still being replaced by guys that will be on the golf course and not in the office. IMHO aspiring to the CEO super is a risky path to take these days.

John Gosselin

Re: Hiring a Construction Super and Beyond
« Reply #54 on: January 18, 2010, 06:19:34 PM »
What I am referring to is not about maintenance. Its about being involved in the construction and growing in a golf course. To keep this thread on track with hiring a construction and beyond....I dont think its too much to ask of a superintendent that is brought on from the beginning to put in the same amount of hours as his crew and the rest of the guys dedicated to getting the project done quickly. And if there is a guy that is interviewed and hired for the job from the beginning there is no asking. The guy that fully commits himself to the job no matter how many hours is going to get the job over the guy who will be available by phone or find the assistant if theres a problem. And thats not me saying the guy is being evaluated by the amount of hours worked. In the beginning its about the amount of dedication to the project. If a super is interviewing for a new construction and grow-in with the preconceived notion that he can get away with delegating his time and responsibility down, the project manager will want the guy that will be there as much as him and everyone else on site.

For a career grow-in super you guys dont have a case. Theres no place for CEO-delegating types on the construction site for reasons such as working less. For a super that is hired to come on at construction and do the grow-in and stay on as the superintendent.....you gotta be effing kidding me that you would come on to the project and not to be able to 100% commit your time and make sacrifices for a year!!! God forbid you dont have weekends off or you miss the Memorial Day, 4th of July and Labor day holidays. You've been handed the reigns to a new golf course to settle down at if you wish and for 1 year you cant go balls to the wall? Thats ridiculous.

For all the projects Ive been involved with the super is by far not the big man on campus calling all the shots. The project manager, project foreman and all the contractors are dictating what, where and when the super does. And the super is scheduling off of their direction and progress. And in my experience if the super would come in while all of these guys are willing to bust their ass for a year and the super says he is not fully committed because he needs weekends and evenings with the family....the project manager is going to run him off the site and request someone thats willing to put in the time he is. Or he will just make the assistant his go to guy. If someone wants to be involved with a construction and grow-in they need to accept the fact that there days off might be Sunday and rain days. And if there are days off because of rain expect to be working till sundown everyday when work resumes. If thats not up your alley...dont get into construction and grow-in.

As far as the CEO type super...coming from an agricultural background that personally is not why I got into the field nor would I ever aspire to. And in this economy we are seeing many supers losing their jobs to younger, cheaper assistants to meet the bottom line and just get the job done. Weve also seen very high profile clubs where money is not as important and CEO types are still being replaced by guys that will be on the golf course and not in the office. IMHO aspiring to the CEO super is a risky path to take these days.

 How has that approach or philosophy worked for you so far in your career?
Great golf course architects, like great poets, are born, note made.
Meditations of a Peripatetic Golfer 1922

Ian Larson

Re: Hiring a Construction Super and Beyond
« Reply #55 on: January 18, 2010, 08:02:59 PM »
Just fine, are you implying that the measure of success in the golf industry is to strive to be or become a CEO style superintendent, architect or builder? I don't think so and neither do many others in the business. I would rather be involved with anything getting dirty and wearing the blue pants. I don't see anything wrong with that.   

Mike_Young

Re: Hiring a Construction Super and Beyond
« Reply #56 on: January 18, 2010, 11:00:46 PM »
Just fine, are you implying that the measure of success in the golf industry is to strive to be or become a CEO style superintendent, architect or builder? I don't think so and neither do many others in the business. I would rather be involved with anything getting dirty and wearing the blue pants. I don't see anything wrong with that.   

Ian,
Throughout this thread I detect some anger or something toward "CEO" supts/ builders architects.....as an architect I can say that I know how critical the supt is to the project and I also don't care how he gets it done....that is his job....but don't think the architect or builder is oblivious.....the entire thing is a team effort IMHO and someone will always get more credit than the others....sort of like a sports team....but for many of us smaller architects...we are not known anymore than the supt./ golf pro/builder etc....
These times make me aware of just how unnecessary and vulnerable this entire industry is in the over all scheme of things....Cheers.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Ian Larson

Re: Hiring a Construction Super and Beyond
« Reply #57 on: January 18, 2010, 11:45:54 PM »
Just fine, are you implying that the measure of success in the golf industry is to strive to be or become a CEO style superintendent, architect or builder? I don't think so and neither do many others in the business. I would rather be involved with anything getting dirty and wearing the blue pants. I don't see anything wrong with that.   

Ian,
Throughout this thread I detect some anger or something toward "CEO" supts/ builders architects.....as an architect I can say that I know how critical the supt is to the project and I also don't care how he gets it done....that is his job....but don't think the architect or builder is oblivious.....the entire thing is a team effort IMHO and someone will always get more credit than the others....sort of like a sports team....but for many of us smaller architects...we are not known anymore than the supt./ golf pro/builder etc....
These times make me aware of just how unnecessary and vulnerable this entire industry is in the over all scheme of things....Cheers.



No not at all. I just dont understand why a superintendent would make the decision to do a construction and grow-in if they weren't willing to
put in the hours. As stated earlier by others its been said that the final product should be the measuring stick to the superintendents job. In a normal maintenance mode I don't disagree with that. In construction and grow-in I do disagree. I think that if someone wants to get construction and grow-in experience they need to accept beforehand that there is rarely going to be a day off and the work days will be long. I don't like the idea of a superintendent doing a construction and grow-in and managing in the same style as he would a normal day to day maintenance operation where responsibility is delegated to an assistant so he can spend more time off site with his family. In a construction environment that doesn't seem like a team effort to me. Its not fair to an assistant and its not fair to the project manager and all of the subs when they have to put in the hours to get the job done on schedule....why does the grow-in super feel it should be different for him?

I'm sure you can vouch first hand how chaotic a new construction can get and how vital the supers presence is to so many on the site every single day. At least the projects Ive worked on he has been. And on the projects Ive been involved with the guys growing the grass in didn't leave till the sun went down including whoever the designated grow-in super was. It was a team effort without delegating anything away so one guy didn't get burnt out more than the other. So I honestly cant say I've known anyone to manage that way in a grow-in phase until Steve Okula said he did. Bradley and Don made some great points with how cool of a experience it is and some of the better moments and memories are after working that 80th hour and that's what I experienced as well. I just couldn't imagine myself delegating responsibility to an assistant and not being there with him the whole time. And I cant imagine being delegated to in that situation with the man in charge not being on site when he is needed on site. So its just my opinion that the CEO management style can wait until the course is grown in and well into the maintenance phase when things calm down. I like construction, design and green keeping and that's what I want to do with my career. I choose to not become the CEO type that delegates the things that I enjoy doing away so that its mostly business and politics that I show up to work for. Like Don said, Id rather wear the blue pants.

John Gosselin

Re: Hiring a Construction Super and Beyond
« Reply #58 on: January 19, 2010, 08:20:38 AM »
Just fine, are you implying that the measure of success in the golf industry is to strive to be or become a CEO style superintendent, architect or builder? I don't think so and neither do many others in the business. I would rather be involved with anything getting dirty and wearing the blue pants. I don't see anything wrong with that.   

I am not implying anything especially how someone measures their own success. I am proud of the fact that every position I have had through my career I have gotten because the people hiring decided I was the right person for the job not because I was the cheaper alternative. The cheaper alternative when hiring a super, architect, or construction company is more often than not a bad decision and will cost more money over time.

Most of us seasoned supers have had jobs that required "to get your hands dirty" whatever that means, but aspired to move on to clubs with more resources and more challenges as we progress. In my first super job it was me and 5 guys for 18 holes with no mechanic and no automated irrigation system. I did all the mechanical work, as well as, most of the irrigation which had to be done at night. Needless to say I did not see much of my young family for about 5 years and still regret it to this day. Thankfully I am at a club now that appreciates what hiring and paying the right person can do for a club.

Only on this site have I ever heard of a CEO type super. In 30 years of being in this business and meeting hundreds of supers I have never come across anyone that views herself/himself as CEO. Is this a west coast thing? Is this management company thing like firing the experienced super to save money?


Great golf course architects, like great poets, are born, note made.
Meditations of a Peripatetic Golfer 1922

Steve Okula

Re: Hiring a Construction Super and Beyond
« Reply #59 on: January 19, 2010, 09:41:35 AM »
The delegation of responsibility is a management technique, not a character flaw.
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Ian Larson

Re: Hiring a Construction Super and Beyond
« Reply #60 on: January 19, 2010, 11:45:07 AM »
Steve,

You are absolutely right. The delegation of responsibility is NOT a character flaw when it is used as a tool to create an efficient operation. Every manager needs to know how to delegate. But when responsibility is delegated down to an assistant or whoever, ESPECIALLY in a construction & grow-in mode, for the sake of spending LESS time on the site. And because YOU have a family and you want to be measured by the product not the hours.....I would have to say that other people have families as well and if the grow-in super feels he can delegate responsibility away in that situation it is as you said, a character flaw IMO. There's a time and place for it and it's not in construction. It's beyond me how or why the super, out of all the other team players in a construction, feels like he is entitled to work less hours than anyone else on the construction site. He's the FIRST guy on the team that should be there the most!


John,

I wouldn't say it's just a west coast thing but it is the west coast where I first saw it. When I referred to it I wasn't implying that going the cheaper route was better at all in fact I think just the opposite. I think anyone in the business should aspire to better themselves and move up to positions that come with more resources to get the job done. And I feel like you may be thinking I'm making a generalization and lumping you into a group and I can assure you I'm not. You don't even come close to what I consider a CEO super and that's a compliment! I think that if a superintendent gets to a place where he has all the resources he needs to the point where everything is delegated away to the point his job becomes about everything else EXCEPT the golf course...is a CEO super. IMO a good super delegates for efficiency and can be completely involved with everything on his golf course while balancing his upper management responsibilities and family life. If a super can't remember the last time he walked a green, picked up a shovel, put together a spray etc etc.....that's what I personally don't aspire to be. Whether it's construction, design or turf, I want to be involved. Not disconnected.

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