[THuckaby2]

Interesting testimony as well that one of my favorites in the entire 27 is Gib's least favorite (#7 Canyon)!

Take away how they completely screwed ME PERSONALLY with the price hikes and I will sing hallelujah and praise the Cinnabar lord.  Given the bait and switch, I do feel uneasy giving the place too much praise.  

But Gib's point is a good one in any case - beyond the volume of discussion here, just the fact a man of allegedly sound mind like friend Goodale can put it up there with Pasa, and defend his position quite well, does speak volumes.

Hey Gib, I dig #9 Canyon - I just didn't want to say something about EVERY hole!  Wind determines everything there, and every shot has something to it.  Another evil green also... And good call re #2 Canyon.  I've spent quite a bit of time around that green also... there are indeed a myriad of different shots to be played, and the chipping areas tie into the green brilliantly.

Want another unsung hole no one has mentioned yet?  I call it a "birdie hole", but I've actually made way more 6's than 4's... #1 Mountain.  Seems simple, right?  Blast it off the tee, blast another one close to the green, pitch on.  Well.... sure, one can make a 5 that way... but I've found in my many times playing that hole that the fairway bunker on the right about 60 yards short of the green is PERFECTLY placed... to have any sort of doable pitch that one can get close, you have to tempt that bunker and come in from the right.  Shots from the left just plain don't hold that green... and if you are gonna try and get there in two, well there it is as a visual reminder of what happens if you don't hit your 2nd solidly.  I'm not gonna say this is one of the best holes on the golf course, because there are so many good ones, but it packs a lot of interest into what seems simple at first glance...

Yeah, I could go on and on about this place.  Damn you Goodale!  

Dan K - ok, I hear ya re San Juan Oaks.  No smoking turns you off like the price hikes turn me off at CH.  No harm, no foul.  And re lack of options, oh man the split fairway hole speaks LOUDLY to that point!  There is absolutely no reason to go right on that hole... might as well let that upper fairway go to seed.  All in all though I haven't come to like that course less as I've played it, but then again, I haven't played it that much in the last two years.

TH

[Dan Kelly]

God knows why I've better-than-skimmed this WHOLE THREAD, considering I've never played Pasatiempo, Cinnabar Hills, Stanford, Stevinson Ranch, San Juan Oaks, or any of 'em!

Oh, I know why, too: This has been a very fine, entertaining conversation. Thank you, gentlemen. (Don't anyone say anything funny, though! The whole thread'll be gone before nightfall. You can take that from me, Dan Kelly [tm], reporting in from Greenland [tm].)

A few notes:

-- TO ALL: No Smoking at San Juan Oaks? What's the deal there? I could certainly understand a No-Littering-Your-Big-Ol'-Cigar-Butts (and a No-Flicking-Your-Big-Ol'-Stogie-Ashes-On-The-Greens) policy -- but no smoking? Is this an indoor golf course? Is this common in California? Is this the future in California? How can a Libertarian survive in California?

-- TO TOM HUCKABY: Vive la difference. Indeed.  

-- TO RICH GOODALE: Someone said you don't like blindness -- and unless I missed something (happens daily), I didn't hear you contradict him (whoever it was). Is that right? You don't like blindness? Why? Semi-blindness, too? Why? Seems to me your trademark here is to favor VARIETY and THRILLINGNESS in golf shots -- which blind and semi-blind shots would seem to offer in spades, at least to my ... eyes.

-- TO TOM HUCKABY: "Damn you Goodale!  " Indeed.

-- TO DAN KING: Thanks for the elegant and eloquent statement on the difference between a golf course and a cart-ball course -- and on the difference between Miss Crawford and Ms. Crawford. (Don't care for either of 'em, personally. Have you read "Mildred Pierce" -- possibly the worst-adapted screenplay, ever, and a great novel by any standard, by one of the least appreciated geniuses, ever, Mr. James M. Cain?)
     One more question for you: Is it possible to have a "golf course" (flowing with the land) that is unwalkable (except, perhaps, by Tenzing Norgay)? If it's possible: Do you know of any?

-- TO JONATHAN SWIFT: Rest in peace, sir. Rest in peace.

[THuckaby2]

Dan Kelly - something told me you might enjoy this thread, despite having any knowledge of the courses in question here.  Well done!  

Re the no smoking policy at San Juan Oaks - hey, I'm not a smoker, never have been, never will be - but this is curious even to me.  This course is no different than any other in the Bay Area - it surrounding landscape is trees, brush, etc. and yes, could be considered a "fire hazard" if one really stretches that definition... but there's something fishy here.  I'm guessing this was a condition of their use permit, though I have absolutely no knowledge of this.  It just seems silly and overbearing and hell yes it makes it tough for a cigar-aficionado Libertarian like my friend Dan King!  I will say I don't think I've seen this rule anywhere other than San Juan Oaks.  As a non-smoker I don't tend to check though, so I could be wrong.

TH

[Bob_Huntley]

Re no smoking at Cinnabar Hills, they are probably emulating that very non-Californian course in New Jersey, namely Pine Valley. Last time I was there Ernie Ransome was so pissed at seeing a disgusting soggy cigar butt in a bunker he banned smoking on the course and promised a suspension of privileges of anyone contravening his diktat. It's one of the few places that I can think of where you can smoke indoors but not out.

[THuckaby2]

AHA!  Oh yes, our CA public courses have so much in common with that dog-track in New Jersey...  

TH

[johnk]

I was thinking about Dan K's statement about
SJO having only one way to play the holes, and I
think I see some of that, esp. the front nine par 5's, but I don't think it's true on the back...

As for Tom, on the split fairway hole (14 at SJO): let's suppose you've been letting the ball go right a bit off the tee.  The big upper fairway has a great aiming bunker, which can be used to set up a draw.  From up there, you have 1 or 2 clubs less than the distance, and can create a really nice high shot which stays on the green.  There's a ton of room on the right by the green, so even when the pin is blue, you don't have to mess with the tree.  I make par from there pretty regularly.  If you went right on 14 tee, and successfully play the draw, you've also set yourself up nicely for the next tee shot on 15...

On the left side, you'll have a serious cut lie, and it's a great approach shot since the green is set up to receive that cut.

I think the hole has two great options...

I used to think the same as you about the right fairway, then I tried it.  Swing away, blast it up there, have an 7, 8 or 9 iron in.  Try it, you might like it...

[Bob_Huntley]

Errata:

San Juan Oaks not Cinnabar Hills.

[THuckaby2]

John K:  I've played SJO MANY times.  I have tried both sides.  What makes going right patently stupid (no offense) might be gone now:  there was a big tree at the right front of the green that blocked all shots from up there except to a left-front pin.  If that tree is gone, then heck yeah, there are two viable options.  If that tree is still there, you're gonna have to explain to me the value of purposefully putting a tree in my way for my 2nd shot!

TH

ps - I just went to the SJO web site and it sure looks like the tree is still there... any pin other than way up front just eliminates the right fairway as an option.  Even with a front pin, why go up there?  The shot is actually LONGER from up there - yes, it is downhill, but you're going out at an angle and uphill for the tee shot, so you'll be farther away than if you go on the left fairway, which is downhill and straight at the hole.  Sorry, you're gonna have to prove this one to me!  

[Dan Grossman]

They have a no smoking policy at Wente Vinyards, as well.  Although I think it is only enforced during the summer.

[Stan Dodd]

TH
Re 14 at SJO... going right is the only way to go IMHO I made birdie to a back right pin

[Stan Dodd]

TH
Re 14 at SJO... going right is the only way to go IMHO I made birdie to a back right pin

[THuckaby2]

Well whitey, I've seen your game - trees in the way are no problem for you!

Seriously though, I went right my first time, just because a fade is my play and that left fairway looked really narrow... and I was shocked how blocked I was for my 2nd.  The tree isn't in the way at all from the left...  I've subsequently tried both ways and my feelings haven't changed.

Of course, I believe I have yet to birdie the hole, so I defer to you!  

TH

[johnk]

Tom,

Yes, the tree is there.  It's why the right side is not
the obvious play.  Still, the tree is not as formidable as it looks. Going over it with as low as 6 iron is pretty
easy since it sits way down in the creek.  I agree, that for minimum risk, dealing with the tree is not ideal.

When the pin is blue, you don't have to hit the green to make a par.  There's that big chipping area to the right side that leaves a straightforward chip, and eliminates the tree problem...

However, the left side has genuine hazards which can
lead easily to doubles.  People either let it leak right or
pull it too high up the hill.

As for the right being longer, I rarely see people inside the 150, in the fairway on the left side.  That's a cut 6 or 5 iron in most cases.  On the right, a good drive usually leaves me with 140 - 170, and clubs from a 9 to a 6, due to the downhill aspect.

For me, the option has to do with how good I feel about hitting a controlled tee shot on the left vs hammering away out to the right.


On smoking, I'd venture that SJO is smart to ban it, and insurance probably requires it -- at least after April.  Most golfers are not Dan King, and probably aren't too worried about flicking their cigs into the brush. I can almost hear the "FOOOMPH" and ensuing crackle as hundreds of acres get set ablaze...  

[THuckaby2]

JK:  hmph.  I guess we're gonna have to agree to disagree re 14 at SJO.  My experience has been that I've had a LOT longer shots in from going right, due to the uphill nature of the tee shot, and that the tree has been much more in the way for me than you state.  My experience also is that the left fairway isn't as narrow as it looks, that balls do kick off the left hill just fine, and the banking and bunkers along the creek serve to keep the ball in play if you go to the right side of that fairway... I've also gotten it inside the 150 many times going left, NEVER going right.  Maybe it's just me.. I do tend to fade the ball...

I must say though that certain bad rounds notwithstanding, I am a generally pretty straight driver of the ball, so the risk is not a big one for me going left.   Given that I do find the 2nd shot blocked and longer, hopefully you can see the no-brainer aspect of this, at least to me.  It's not that much of an easier drive and it leaves a MUCH harder 2nd.

I will grant this:  if you see it as an option, and whitey made birdie from up there, than it's just in MY feeble mind that it isn't a play.  This is enough to make it a good golf hole, no matter what I think.

TH

[Dan King]

I've been giving Cinnabar some thought, and I think what bothers me most about it is its lost potential. This could have been a good course. The site is a good site. The routing they came up with is reasonably good. The only thing that keeps it from being a good course is the obsession with elevated tees. It wasn't needed and the land didn't dictate it. It was just they decided to elevate almost all of the tees. I can't help but being bothered by this everytime I go there.

San Juan Oaks crazed smoking policy they claim is due to fire danger. I'm sure it was some deal they struck with their insurance company. Haven't been there in a while, but they used to enforce it. I had a marshal demand I put out my cigar. He said it was a fire danger. I said it wasn't for me, since I was right down the middle of the fairway all day.

Dan Kelly writes:
Thanks for the elegant and eloquent statement on the difference between a golf course and a cart-ball course

I think the definition of cart-ball belongs to Mr. Tatum (first place I ever heard the term.)

and on the difference between Miss Crawford and Ms. Crawford. (Don't care for either of 'em, personally. Have you read "Mildred Pierce" -- possibly the worst-adapted screenplay, ever, and a great novel by any standard, by one of the least appreciated geniuses, ever, Mr. James M. Cain?)

I've never read Mildred Pierce or even seen the movie. Guess I'll add it tp my list of books to read. I only included Ms. Crawford because I had that way cool pic. I get her confused with plenty of other actresses from that era.

One more question for you: Is it possible to have a "golf course" (flowing with the land) that is unwalkable (except, perhaps, by Tenzing Norgay)? If it's possible: Do you know of any?

The closest course I can think that would fit that definition is Kapalua Plantation.  I'd rank it as one of the best cart-ball tracks in the world. It flows well with the land, but ends up with a couple long, forced hikes.  It was very difficult land to work with, but I'm a believer in not all land was intended to be covered in golf courses.

Rich Goodale writes:
One of the doubting "K" twins, Dan, thinks that it has too many downhill tee shots.  The other "K" twin, John, thinks that it has too many uphill tee shots!

One possibility is that John is wrong and I am right.  I didn't go back and look but I think I was upset about the elevated tees and John was talking about uphill holes. It is possible to have an elevated tee to a hole that goes uphill.

Gib_Papazin writes:
The fact that there are 48 responses of sensible debate on the subject between well traveled golfers is testimony to the outstanding quality of the golf course.

Wonder how many responses I'd get if I posted that Rancho del Pueblo is a better course than Cypress Point? My guess is I'd get a lot more than if I stated that Cyrpress Point is a better course than Rancho del Pueblo.

"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject."
 --Winston Churchill

[Slag_Bandoon]

Dan Kelly, Thanks for using Tenzing and not Edmund.   Nice esoteric touch.

 Every course is flat.  The uphill / downhill delemma is easily solved by measuring the distance from your eyes to the ground at the tee ground,  recording it,  measuring again those same points while on the green.   They are always  exactly (nominally) the same.  Numbers don't lie.  
            

[johnk]

> Rich Goodale writes:
> One of the doubting "K" twins, Dan, thinks that it has too > many downhill tee shots.  The other "K" twin, John, thinks > that it has too many uphill tee shots!

Dan King:
> One possibility is that John is wrong and I am right.  I didn't go back and look but I think I was upset about the elevated tees and John was talking about uphill holes. It is possible to have an elevated tee to a hole that goes uphill.

Dan is probably more right - #1 Mountain brings both of our criticisms nicely together...  I agree Cinnabar has too many elevated tees, and was more worried about the many uphill aproaches.  I also agree with Dan's sense of loss of the potential.

I think the reason this thread has so many posts is because Goodale and Huckster kept at it until it got traction  Dan K is right on again in that all the commentary doesn't really elevate the mystery and value of Cinnabar Hills that much, in my mind.

In fact, the whole thread makes me want to play Pasa all the more...  

[THuckaby2]

Well, it is my "baby", after all.  I couldn't possibly post LESS than 15 times about this course!

Anyone want to hear about the new Los Lagos muni?  

TH

[Rich McGoodale]

Im keepin my eyes on youse guys!   Both "K"s are wrong!  They dont call strikeouts "K"s for nuttin!

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