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Paul Richards

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Grove Park Inn
« on: April 08, 2002, 02:31:01 PM »
There's a 1926 Donald Ross course in Asheville, NC at the Grove Park Inn.

What can anyone tell me about it?

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Scott Wicker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Grove Park Inn
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2002, 02:49:09 PM »
Paul,

I was in Asheville last year and they were doing some work.  I didn't get a chance to get out on the property but drove around the perimeter of the course.  It looked like a typical resort course.  Many ornamental trees and lush grass.  I have been to the hotel and it is spectacular.  If I were going to Asheville I would certainly attempt to play Biltmore Forest again before Grove Park.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Scott Wicker

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Grove Park Inn
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2002, 04:48:26 PM »
Paul,
From their website:
The Grove Park Inn Resort & Spa Golf Course renovation project will restore, as closely as possible, the greens complexes to the same playing characteristics as the original Donald Ross design. This project includes plans to reshape and laser-level the teeing areas and do minor fairway re-shaping on a few holes while converting our Vamont Bermuda fairways to bentgrass.
We have engaged the services of golf course architect Kris Spence of Classic Golf Course Design, Inc. This year Mr. Spence traveled to Scotland where he visited the inspiration for the Ross vision, which resulted in great golf courses across the United States. The restorations of other Donald Ross designs by Mr. Spence have been outstanding. His efforts at our resort will produce an improved playing field for the game along with a palpable connection to Ross's original intent. The general contractor for the renovation is The Course Doctors, Inc., of Hendersonville, NC.
The reconstruction work primarily involves the greens surfaces, the collars, the bunkers, and the areas immediately adjacent. Heat-resistant bentgrass will be seeded. The greens' surfaces will be slightly enlarged and greens will be reshaped to capture the original contour, slope, and pitch. The greens, though as historically accurate as possible, will be modified to accept shots onto surfaces of 21st century bentgrass, which are maintained with modern mowing equipment and irrigation systems. There will be 30-inch collars at each green and the areas adjacent the greens will vary from high rough grasses and closely-mown collection areas, to grass as well as sand bunkers. Bunkers will reflect Ross's selection for position, depth, and grade. Just over 100,000 square feet of new teeing area will be developed. New back tees will be built at holes 4, 9, 10, and 15. Ladies' tees will be enlarged and leveled. Tees will be reseeded with a laterally aggressive, hybrid bentgrass and will be laser-leveled.
Significant changes will be made at four holes. Their renovation include:
#4 will have a new back tee and will play as it originally did, as a par five hole. The fairway will be shored up on the right side to make the landing area level. A fairway bunker will be placed to the right at about 250 yards off that tee as well to help prevent balls from running away into the right rough.
#9 will have the back of the tee box extended to the left, opening up that tee shot to allow more room for a draw. The right bunkers at the green will be removed and the cart path will be re-routed to a less intrusive area above the green on the hillside to the right.
#10 will play as a longish par four. The fairway will be just right of the current fairway, and the hole will play nearly dead straight rather than as a slight dogleg.
#15 will have a new back tee to add 40 to 50 yards at the hole. To open up this tee shot, the thirteenth tee and the fourteenth green will be moved slightly to the right. While this will not noticeably change the fourteenth hole, the move will create a very slight dogleg-left effect at the short par four thirteenth
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Grove Park Inn
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2002, 06:44:20 PM »
Jim:

Thank you for that information.

Does anyone know anything about Kris Spence?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Grove Park Inn
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2002, 08:02:09 PM »
Paul,
Super- Greensboro CC, Greensboro, NC
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Grove Park Inn
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2002, 08:08:41 PM »
Jim;
Any restoration or architectural experience or is this his
maiden voyage?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Dunlop_White

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Grove Park Inn
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2002, 08:18:25 PM »
Paul,

Kris Spence used to be the superintendent at Greensboro CC in Greensboro, NC. Their professional, Scott Bailey, could answer most any question that you have concerning Kris.

Also, Brad Klein likes his work as he conveyed this to a group at Old Town Club. Give Brad a call, and I'm sure he will elaborate.

I do know that Kris Spence and The Course Doctors, Inc. are currently together again renovating the bunkers at Cedar Brook CC in Elkin, NC, just below Roaring Gap.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Grove Park Inn
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2002, 05:12:08 AM »
Dunlop:

Returning from Pinehurst, we stopped overnight at the
Grove Park and I was fortunate enough to get to tour the
course by cart.  Although the course isn't scheduled to open
for a few more weeks, I was quite enchanted by what I
saw.  The routing is amazing, as it is a very small piece of
property, yet seems to flow very nicely.  This course could
very well be a "hidden gem" that some on golfclubatlas like
to find.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Grove Park Inn
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2002, 05:40:20 AM »
Good to hear some attention is being paid to the course.  Is any attempt being made to restore the Ross design?

I played it about 15 years ago and it was in abysmal condition.  Really awful.

Bob
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Grove Park Inn
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2002, 07:39:32 AM »
Being a NC resident, I of course have heard of it and have seen it from the Inn's veranda and driving by it, but have not played it.  I'd heard it was nothing too special.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_D._Bernhardt

Re: Grove Park Inn
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2002, 09:23:55 AM »
Paul, i was supposed to stay there last fall but the sept 11 unexpected week in canada impacted my plans. The hotel is full of arts and crafts architectural pieces and design. I am pleased to hear of a resoration to the course. Does anyone know whether the hotel reflects an east coast look or a more southern flavor.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

golfarc

Re: Grove Park Inn
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2002, 11:50:14 AM »


Another superintendant turned designer?  I wonder why clubs trust beginners with restorations.  Probably because they can't afford the real thing.  Nothing against K.S. but you have to wonder with people like Stephen Kay, Brian Silva, Ron Forse, why go with that little experience for such an important (matter of perspective) task.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mashie1

Re: Grove Park Inn
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2002, 02:46:05 PM »
I believe that GPI was the original Asheville CC and was the first course designed by Ross in NC.

Mashie! 8)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Grove Park Inn
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2002, 08:53:38 PM »
John D - never been to Grove Park Inn but from the pictures I've seen, it looks either real southern (wide porches with rocking chairs) or real eastern Adirondack style (wide porches with rocking chairs)!  I'd probably guess more southern style.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Kris Spence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Grove Park Inn
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2002, 09:59:30 PM »
Since I visit this web site from time to time, I thought I would throw in my two cents worth on this topic.  Another superintendent turned designer?, not sure what you mean by that, I guess kinda like Ross did.  Why did they hire  me, I guess because they liked what they saw when they visited  several of my other projects.  For your information golf arc, anyone who can spend 50 million cash to restore their resort can afford anybody they want.  Sorry guys and gals for the little rant there, when someone who knows nothing about me or my work takes a stab and doesn't even have the nerve to sign their name to it, it gets me going a bit.

Anyway, on the subject of the Grove Park Inn. This course has had an interesting history of redesign work done to the golf course, including several works by well known architects.  None of the previous work was at all sensitive to the original Ross course and the place bore absolutely no resemblence to anything Ross had ever done there.  The seventh hole was the only remaining hole from the original Ross design and it had been abandoned somewhat for a new green site all carry over a pond to the left of the original green.   The seventh was faithfully restored to its original design and character and is one of the best one shot holes in the state.  It plays just over 200 yards straight toward the Resort Hotel which is now visible to the player following considerable tree removal.    Ross took a natural depressionthat originated well off the left side of the green and worked it into the putting surface brilliantly to create some internal contours that are subtle but very strategic.  

To give you a brief summary of the project, all of the greens and surrounding bunkers were restored as closely as possible to the originals based on what limited information was available.  I worked from many still photo's and an aerial from 1951  that showed the size, shape and angles of the greens and bunker postions etc.  We also dug around in the dirt so to speak and found out what we could in regards to old features, bunker sands/faces etc.  We found a few bulldozier tracks from Ross' machinery, I just hope none of the guys back then got hit when she threw her shoes.

We restored all but 5 or 6 of the fairway bunkers including native fine fescue  and bluestem faces and flat sand bottoms.  A tremendous amount of hand work was done by the Course Doctors on the bunkers that gives them the feel of having been built in the 20's with horses, mules , drag pans etc.  They did a great job on this project.  Also, approximately 15 to 18 acres of fescue areas were restored to recapture that classic feel and textures of the original design which considering the courses location in the middle of town will be a tremendous asset to the environmental aspects of the site.

All of the tees were reshaped and enlarged to handle the resort traffic and were squared up to the lines of play.  Numerous tees were added where appropriate to capture additional length and to restore certain stategic ground contours etc into play.

The most noticeable change for those of you that have played the course previously will be the restored diagonal creek across the 3rd fairway and to the right of the green.
This creek was the primary strategic feature on the hole prior to having been excavated and turned into a pond.  Actually, the hole will play alot like the 13th at Augusta with alittle more room on the green side and left.

As the article stated, the 4th fairway was reshaped a bit to better accomodate the tee shot and the tees moved left.  

Another major part of the project was tree removal to open up the rough areas, permit recovery shots and restore many wonderfull long vistas around the site.  The roughs had been completely plugged up with 1000's of ornamental and non native tree plantings which have been removed.  We probably removed 750 trees and I would have like to have taken 500 more.  We are continuing in this direction slowly as to not alarm the huggers.

This golf course really suprised me once we got started and the work progressed.  This course had alot more potential that what I first thought possible due to the limitations of the site.  Additional land was purchased by GPI soon after we began which allowed us to rework some awkward areas on the 15th, 16th, and 17th holes.  I think you will find the course to your liking especially if you appreciate the traditional feel of a classic Ross course.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Grove Park Inn
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2002, 10:04:37 PM »
Kris:

I agree.  I wish the naysayers would sign their name.

Nice job with GPI.  It looks great and I hope to return some
day to actually play the course.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Grove Park Inn
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2002, 10:06:04 PM »
Kris:

PS  Ron Prichard wishes you a lot of success.  Proper restoration is an important aspect of golf architecture....
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

golfarc

Re: Grove Park Inn
« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2002, 01:39:02 PM »

K.S.,

If you took the time to read my post you would have seen where I said, nothing against K.S..

Also, I know more about you than you may think.  Are you implying that you have more experience or skill than the three architects I mentioned?  My point was simple, why would they not hire more experience, not that you don't have any, but your "several" projects are just that.  

Your little "rant" as you call it comes off as being defensive which supports my theory that you lack experience if you take offense to someone questioning your credentials.  

I did not write in to be engaged in debate, but if you feel it is important to know my name before you debate you will be dissapointed.  

Out here.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Grove Park Inn
« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2002, 04:39:36 AM »
golfarc,

I've said it before, and I'm sure I'll be stuck saying it again,
but it is so easy to sit and criticize and then not attach your
name.

How about signing your real name to your criticisms?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

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