High Point's 18th Hole - Confessions of a Doak Colon Boy

[Mike Hendren]

Not usually one to kiss and tell, Bogey lunched today with young Tim Bert, Doak's first Colon Boy.  While "Doak" and "genius" were mentioned in the same sentence, in a rare display of intellectual honesty (even the ground hog occasionally emerges from his hole to cast a shadow), young Bert stated that High Point's 18th was one of the worst finishing holes he has ever played.   

Any thoughts on  High Point's 18th?  Pictorial insight?  Comments from The Man hisownself?

Mike

[Jud_T]

Any change they're going to actually open that dogtrack this year?   

[Bill_McBride]

Not usually one to kiss and tell, Bogey lunched today with young Tim Bert, Doak's first Colon Boy.  While "Doak" and "genius" were mentioned in the same sentence, in a rare display of intellectual honesty (even the ground hog occasionally emerges from his hole to cast a shadow), young Bert stated that High Point's 18th was one of the worst finishing holes he has ever played.   

Any thoughts on  High Point's 18th?  Pictorial insight?  Comments from The Man hisownself?

Mike

It's a good thing there is no "sputtering" emoticon.

[K. Krahenbuhl]

I took a bunch of pictures at High Point.  18 was bad enough that I decided to leave the camera in the bag.

[JC Jones]

Bogey,

Contrary to what you would think, this is colon-boy at its finest.  I don't want to speak for Mr. Doak but I believe I have read here before that he is not pleased with the 18th at High Point but it was created as the client at the time was insistant on a par 72.  Therefore, Mr Colon-Boy is doing nothing other that re-expressing the views of Mr. Doak.  He has no opinion of his own

[John Mayhugh]

This from a review on a website called michigangolfer.com.  I remember reading it before I played there and thinking how it compared to discussion on GCA.

The 18th is a fabulous closing hole that requires strategy, guts, and pure shots. The fairway is bisected by the only water on the course, a pond that lies diagonal to the tee boxes. Pay attention to the sign at the tees, which tells you how far it is to the nearest and farthest points of the first half of the fairway. From the elevation of the tees, the woods on the far end of the fairway looked out of reach, but the sign told me otherwise, so I used 3-wood to hit it two yards short of the trees. From there, it's longer than it looks to the second half of the fairway, over the water. The green is protected right-front by the pond, which is thick with golf balls. A truly wonderful closing hole.

It's not a great hole, but the real complaint is how it ends an otherwise really strong course.


Jud,
An emoticon might be a useful addition to your comment.

[Philippe Binette]

from the aerial, it seems there was some possible alternatives as far as how to route this hole, but if would have been a par 4. The topo or environmental considerations (wet area) might prove me wrong.

I hit 3 wood off the tee last time and had another 3 wood over water to the green, exciting shot. Is it a good hole, I doubt it
 

[Steve Lang]

   The reality of fun on the 18th is playing from the old elevated front tees.. not the ones you first come up to along the path f rom 17, but across the fairway and up the hill to the right.. and up the hill a little bit more. from there the hole is quite interesting to get across the weed plain and stay out of the water.. a very challenging par 4..  the whole present landing zone is for the ladies to play the hole as a par 5.

[Kalen Braley]

Can we get some pictures of said "dog track" hole!!   

[Ronald Montesano]

How can any self-respecting member of this forum type the moniker "C*$&^ boy"?  Man, it's so gross, I can't even type it.  Really?

[J_ Crisham]

I took a bunch of pictures at High Point.  18 was bad enough that I decided to leave the camera in the bag.

As I recall you pumped 2 in the H2O and your camera was almost next.  This couse is the least favorite of Doaks designs I've played. To be fair I must mention that Pacific Dunes and Ballyneal are the others I've played. 18th is just a bad hole but the property was kind of iffy as I recall.                                   Jack

[C. Squier]

I took a bunch of pictures at High Point.  18 was bad enough that I decided to leave the camera in the bag.

I dug into my photos and I did the same thing....I can help on the other 17 though!

[Tom_Doak]

I have commented on the 18th hole at High Pointe here before, but I don't know how you would search for it, so I'll tell the story one more time.

It was possible that my client Mr. Hayden was going to develop some housing on part of the site, so I understood that it would be better if we could get the 18th hole down through the edges of the wetland area in the middle of the site, to save more acreage for housing.  So, I drew a plan of a double-diagonal par 5 hole, something like Trent Jones' 13th at Dorado Beach [though I have never seen it in person], and submitted that to the Michigan Dept. of Natural Resources.  We received preliminary feedback indicating that the hole would be allowed.

After construction had started, we received formal notice that our permit was denied, because I had shown too much fill in the edge of the wetland.  We corrected this and sent it back for review -- we really needed to build the hole there now, because we were already started on the rest of the routing!  The DNR field guy came out to flag the wetland in the field, and then said we would have to stay 25 feet outside of the flags as a buffer area.  This field ruling turned my double-diagonal hole into a two-forced-carry hole, but it was all we were allowed to build.  He also flagged us away from extending the landing area down the right side of the wetland, so the tee shot would either be a long carry to a shallow landing area, or a shorter carry and a bit of a lay-up.

So, we built the hole we were allowed to build.  Lesson learned:  NEVER start a hole until the wetlands are officially delineated and the permitting is finished and you know what you can and can't do.

In spite of that, there was one magazine article 15 years ago which rated the hole as one of the best in Michigan!  And indeed, for a 10-handicapper who hits it 240 yards, it's a terrific hole.  It just doesn't work for anyone else -- least of all my former wife, who wrecked many a good round by failing to get over the hazard on her second shot.

[Tim Bert]

For what it's worth I publicly proclaimed disappointment with the 17th as well. I didn't dare tell Mike at lunch as he was already in a state of shock...

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37512.msg771237/

 

[John Mayhugh]

Aerial view.  Tee is bottom center in between the trees.  Fairway to the right, green top left.


View from tee.


From fairway looking back toward tee.


From fairway toward green.


On the other side of water short of green.


Looking back toward fairway and tee.

[Mike Cirba]

Is that double-dogleg par five your ode to William and David Gordon, Tom?    

Seriously, I'm that 240 yard 10 handicapper...I liked the hole just fine, but it's anything but the best one out there and really pales in comparison to the rest if there's still a there there.  

[Tom_Doak]

You're right, Mike, "terrific" was an overstatement.  It's a reasonable, heroic-style hole for the 10-handicapper, even though it is really a sucker play to ever try for the green in two.  While the course was growing in, I used to play the back nine 5 nights a week for the superintendent, and after we'd put about 50 balls in the pond between us, he said, "You know, I've got more chance of making a 3 here by holing out a wedge, than I have by knocking this shot onto the green and making the putt."

I never went for it after that.

[Mike Cirba]

You're right, Mike, "terrific" was an overstatement.  It's a reasonable, heroic-style hole for the 10-handicapper, even though it is really a sucker play to ever try for the green in two.  While the course was growing in, I used to play the back nine 5 nights a week for the superintendent, and after we'd put about 50 balls in the pond between us, he said, "You know, I've got more chance of making a 3 here by holing out a wedge, than I have by knocking this shot onto the green and making the putt."

I never went for it after that.

Tom,

As I grow older, I find that I'm enjoying starting to play conservative, "old-man" golf.

After a good drive, I glanced over at the green once, twice...then hit a 5 iron over to the left.

With age comes wisdom, I guess.   Either that, or we just lose our nerve. 

[Kalen Braley]

Maybe its just me...but I was expecting something far worse than that.

While the hole wouldn't make my "dream 18" list it doesn't look too bad.  The 2nd shot looks to have an interesting "bite-off-as-much-as-you-can-chew" decision to make.

I suppose if one hits it left into that marsh to begin with off the tee, they are probably looking at a big number though!! 

P.S.  Is it possible for a big hitter to hit a high draw/hook over the crap and land in that 2nd fairway?

P.P.S.  Never mind, looks like I found my answer....a 240 yard high draw!!

[Adam Clayman]

Conceptually, isn't it the same as 18 at The Rawls?

[Mike Cirba]

Here I am contemplating;



Here I am relieved that I didn't take the bait;

[Kalen Braley]

Mike,

Assuming one hits it to the middle of that 1st fairway on the right, its about a 220 yard carry to the green.  But if you can hit it more towards the end of it, its only about a 200 yard carry.  Thats childs play even for a hack like me!! 

[jonathan_becker]

I'm thinking along the same lines as Kalen.  After seeing the photos, the hole isn't near as bad as i had imagined.  I guess you just have to take your medicine off the tee and not hit driver.  

Kalen,

You're the maps guy....what's the carry to hook it around the corner?

[jonathan_becker]

after seeing the answer above - wait a minute....only 240 to hook it around the corner off the tee?  not that would be the correct play

[Jud_T]

I think the point wasn't that it was a disaster of a hole, but rather that it might not be up to Tom's otherwise high standard....

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