How did the Second Golden Age Stack up to the First?

[PCCraig]

...the ability to value and take care of what we already have is just as important in many cases.

  Excellent point !   

Thanks...and to add to my comment I think that the average golfer / club member / greens committee has becomed far more "enlightened" compared to years past with regards to GCA.

Golden Age of Enlightenment? 

[Mac Plumart]

Pat...

I wasn't refering to the golf courses with that line.  I was referring to the Wounded Warrior Golf Tournaments and NAGA events.  They would have to ride in a cart, which Melvyn doesn't consider true golf. 

But I just wonder what he would feel seeing these guys and gals playing the game depsite their injuries.

Would he be proud that golf gave them a outlet?  Would he not be so adament against carts?  Or would his view not change.  I think seeing it first hand would be more impactful that reading about it or watching it on tv.

Just wondering.

[Kyle Harris]

Golden Age implies our best is behind us.

[PCCraig]

Pat...

I wasn't refering to the golf courses with that line.  I was referring to the Wounded Warrior Golf Tournaments and NAGA events.  They would have to ride in a cart, which Melvyn doesn't consider true golf. 

But I just wonder what he would feel seeing these guys and gals playing the game depsite their injuries.

Would he be proud that golf gave them a outlet?  Would he not be so adament against carts?  Or would his view not change.  I think seeing it first hand would be more impactful that reading about it or watching it on tv.

Just wondering.

Mac -

Sorry, I didn't mean to open that can of worms. I should of read a little more closely...I think maybe your spacing threw me off.

That being said I wouldn't want to be the guy that walks up to a Veteran who just lost an arm in combat but still wants to continue playing the game that he loves and tell him what he is doing isn't "True golf." I can't imagine there being any form of golf more "true" than being set back physically and still playing based on nothing other than the love of the game.

[Mike Sweeney]

To get real specific, I won't get out there myself this year, but I am interested to hear how Old Macdonald matches up to NGLA?

It looks fabulous via a computer.

[Mac Plumart]

Pat...

I couldn't agree more.

For the love of the game.  Great post(s)!

Mac

[Garland Bayley]

...
But I just wonder what he would feel seeing these guys and gals playing the game depsite their injuries.
...

I believe Melvyn has often related that is what he thinks the carts should be for.

[Mac Plumart]

Garland, you are absolutely right.  And I think everyone knows that I like Melvyn a lot and have even adopted many of his "quirks" related to the game, so I am not bagging on him at all.

I guess I am wondering if seeing the totality of the impact golf has had on people lives across the globe would change his perspective at all.

In my mind, he is essentially part of the "first family" of golf, if you will, and I just wonder if seeing all of these things would make him happier or sadder about the current state of golf.

Perhaps wording it and wondering about in on online chat room is not the best forum as the back and forth and give and take that is inherent in face-to-face communication is lacking online and sometimes things can get misinterpretted, but nevertheless I think he might be even more proud and happy about his association with golf.

But that is just speculation.

[Jason Topp]

What strikes me about the last 10 years or so as a design "trend" that will stick and has done more for the courses we love has been the increasing number of clubs and courses being restoring and refurbished. With less and less land available and the finances and permits so hard to come by needed to build a golf course...the ability to value and take care of what we already have is just as important in many cases.

Just my two cents on why I would consider it a "golden age."

That is an angle I did not think of.  After Minikahda cleared trees a few years ago, most Minneapolis clubs have engaged in some version of restoration in the intervening time period.  I used to think of Ross courses as having round greens on top of hills.  Many of the "restoration" work resulted in significantly more varied greens.

[Melvyn Morrow]

How many Golden Ages do we have or are going to have.  What defines a Golden Age?

Is it the challenge of building a course out in no mans land or building great challenging and strategic courses that will test the golfer. But then is not the latter what designers are paid to provide?  So new and good courses are being built worldwide, I am happy to hear and see that, however how does that equate to a new golden age of golf.

Lets look at golf, the last year or so has been a shameful time in the antics of Tiger Woods both on and off the course. His temper tantrums and club throwing went unpunished and sent out a message that this type of behaviour is acceptable on our golf course – wow what a golden age we are really having. Then we have the constantly expanding length of our courses to pamper the few, the ball is traveling further but not by the efforts of the golfer alone, he is helped by technology. Then the cost for the modifications to our courses which the ordinary player ultimately has to pay. The age of technology going on relatively unchecked due to a weak a pathetic administration who job it is to protect the Game of Golf - I see where some of you are coming from, it must be a Golden Age, but would you really want to call it Golden.


As for carts, they are a necessary evil that should only allowed for those who need them.

But the new Golden Age is full of courses with carts, distance aids, all to make the life easier for the healthy golfer. He can ride instead of walking, he can use the electronic distance aids instead of using his own brain and eyes, in fact I sometimes wonder why these people ever took up golf in the first place. 

Sorry my little rant has made me forget, are we in the third, fourth, fifth or tenth Golden Age and is it because someone has produced some rather good course?  I must say I can’t wait until the next Golden Age, expect courses will by then have disappeared but then as no one will want to walk, let alone go out in either the wet, cold, hot or humid conditions, so it will be a Golden Age because all will be computer controlled, flashed on the screen at home. Now there is a thought, at least you will save on Green Fees and cart rental, nor will you need to splash out on high tech equipment or aids either, just pay SKY a monthly charge and play at home. Sorry Mr. Doak and others, times are a changing and you will have to look at another way to keep your family fed and housed, but don’t fret, as it will just be another Golden Age, perhaps the Age of the Terminator may come to life and be sent back in time to eliminate me – may make a film out of that theme, what do you think?

Golden Age – I wish I could see it but I just see a tarnished decade or two which on mass has not a great deal to show for itself.

Melvyn

[PCCraig]

Lets look at golf, the last year or so has been a shameful time in the antics of Tiger Woods both on and off the course. His temper tantrums and club throwing went unpunished and sent out a message that this type of behaviour is acceptable on our golf course – wow what a golden age we are really having. Then we have the constantly expanding length of our courses to pamper the few, the ball is traveling further but not by the efforts of the golfer alone, he is helped by technology. Then the cost for the modifications to our courses which the ordinary player ultimately has to pay. The age of technology going on relatively unchecked due to a weak a pathetic administration who job it is to protect the Game of Golf - I see where some of you are coming from, it must be a Golden Age, but would you really want to call it Golden.

This has nothing to do with the topic at hand...which is comparing today's courses being built as part of a "golden age" vs. (I'm assuming) the designs of the ~1920's.

Unfortunately this has nothing to do with comparing Old Tom Morris's era vs. Tiger Woods' era. and the overall condition of golf.

Perhaps history is on the side of golf courses in Fife, however in the rest of the world (believe me there is a world outside of England & Scotland & the World Wide Web) discussing what period supplied us with the best golf courses is a discussion worth having.

Also, I don't really agree that "Golden Age" means the best time of all, but maybe more of a period of 'wealth' in quality golf course design and construction.

[Dick Kirkpatrick]

Someone once said "The Golden Age" of golf course architecture or design or the proliferation of courses built in the 1800's and early 1900's, and we have been stuck with the term forever, I guess.

If this someone had never coined the phrase, we could be saying or discussing the older golf designs vs. the newer and new golf designs, which would be a better discussion in my opinion.

Also, the newer designers have remedied many of the shortcomings of the older designs, both on the original courses done by the old boys, and through the experience gained by these shortcomings, do not let them happen on the new designs.
An example of a major change needed for the old courses was the development of proper teeing grounds instead of just teeing it up at a point as near as possible to the hole previous, along with tees for golfers of varying skills.

Was there ever a "Golden Age"?

[Melvyn Morrow]

Pat

Happy New Year to you

In my defence I did ask the question on my first line ‘What defines a Golden Age’ 
As for not having anything to do with the topic in hand I feel you maybe wrong on that point, but that’s only my opinion.

As for Old Tom, did I mention his name or his era, or for that matter did I mention Fife? But thank you for doing so.

A Golden Age, for me the word Age gives the game away, its seems to refer to everything that happened in that Age, but again it’s only my opinion. I note your meaning of the word Golden Age to mean and I quote “ I don't really agree that "Golden Age" means the best time of all, but maybe more of a period of 'wealth' in quality golf course design and construction”.

Well, I would never have come to that conclusion, would it be possible to forward a dictionary or phrase book covering your take on the important words, in fact all the words and phrases you may perhaps use when posting on this site. I just want to fully understand your meaning just in case for some reason I feel you maybe trying to upset or insult me, which of course I know is not your intention.

I trust you enjoy the new American courses in the coming year and look forward to a detailed photo post on each hole.

Melvyn   

Dick

I thought that Tee sites were well established prior to 1900, well in Scotland although I could be wrong.

[David_Elvins]

Jason, Nice thread.

Comparing the pointy end of courses designed in the Golden Age of the against those built i nthe most recent Golden Age is a worthy and interesting hypothetical, eve nf it will be easier to judge with time. 

It is a pitty that the thread is being de-railed by posters who are trying to argue what constitutes a golden age etc etc. 

I would have thought it was obvious to most that the economic conditions of the 20s and last decade were very similar and this has allowed a very similar boom on course construction and similar boom in quality sites being used ofr golf.  The number of great courses produced is also similar. 

I really can't see how anyone could not see the similarities. 

[David_Tepper]

Whether it proves to a be 2nd "golden age" of golf course architecture remains to be seen, but Scotland is clearly witnessing, at the very least, a boomlet in high-quality golf course design and construction.

For starters, Kingsbarns, Castle Stuart, Machrihanish Dunes & the Renaissance Club are among the finest golf courses that have been built in Scotland since WWII.    

[Sean_A]

Whether it proves to a be 2nd "golden age" of golf course architecture remains to be seen, but Scotland is clearly witnessing, at the very least, a boomlet in high-quality golf course design and construction.

For starters, Kingsbarns, Castle Stuart, Machrihanish Dunes & the Renaissance Club are among the finest golf courses that have been built in Scotland since WWII.    

And you didn't mention Loch Lomond, and a few others such as the links course that was associated with Loch Lomond or Skibo which are both fine courses.  Ireland to has produced a few lovelies in recent years.  It seems to me the dearth of new designs in the UK is in England and Wales. 

I have have never bought that the golden age of architecture was such a narrowly defined timeline.  I believe at the very least it should spread from 1900 to 1939 and in truth, TOC should be included after the fairways were widened - say somewhere around 1875-80ish.  Afterall, TOC is the course which sparked modern design principles even though folks failed to really grasp this for another 25 years.  In truth, the aberration was Victorian architecture rather than TOC. 

I have no idea how the courses from various ages will stack up, but I do believe the quantity of great courses completed say between 1900 (dawn of modern architecture) and 1939 (pretty much the very end of that original flourish of modern architecture) will be very, very difficult to beat. That said, there are pluses on the recent side of things with some of these great designs being public courses.  This is one of the major shifts in the industry compared to the 1920s and I hope the trend continues. 

Ciao

[Mike Sweeney]

I would have thought it was obvious to most that the economic conditions of the 20s and last decade were very similar and this has allowed a very similar boom on course construction and similar boom in quality sites being used ofr golf.  The number of great courses produced is also similar. 

I really can't see how anyone could not see the similarities. 

Couple of things distinguish the two time frames:

1. Many of the modern courses are mainly reached by plane (Sand Hills, Barnbougle, Bandon.....) rather than auto or train.

2. In this era, the price of the land dictates either 365 day a year public (Bandon, Chambers Bay), very remote private (Ballyneal) or very expensive private (Friars Head). There have not been any "regular guy" courses (Bethpage, Winged Foot) or clubs built that are deemed architecturally significant.  Wild Horse being the exception is awfully tough to get to.

[Tom MacWood]

I agree with Sean the quality (and quantity) of courses between 1900 and 1939 would be very hard to beat. 1900 to 1939 is generally accepted as the golden age of golf architecture.

Sir Guy Campbell had a slightly different take on the ages, and he based it the advent of the guttie and the haskel. The courses developed prior to the guttie (1848) he referred to as the Primitive Age. From 1848 to the advent of the haskel (1902) he referred to as the Orthodox Age. Sunningdale Old and Huntercombe being the last major designs of the Orthodox Age. And the close of the Boer War to the time the book was written (1950?) the Mechanical Age.

He calls Willie Park-Jr "the doyen of golf architects, as the term is understood today." IMO its too early to judge the last decade or the last couple of decades. We need more time to put things in proper perspective, including if we are ending one age and entering another or not.

Here is another image from Campbell, I believe this depicts the development of inland golf.

[Gary Slatter]

In the US (I am not in the US),
will this depression result in the same boom for public golfers (Bethpage type depression projects) as the last one?
 I think YES as private courses may become public in many aspects of their operations.

[PCCraig]

Pat

Happy New Year to you

In my defence I did ask the question on my first line ‘What defines a Golden Age’ 
As for not having anything to do with the topic in hand I feel you maybe wrong on that point, but that’s only my opinion.

Tiger Woods has nothing to do with comparing and discussing the different periods of golf course design. Which is the purpose of this thread.

As for Old Tom, did I mention his name or his era, or for that matter did I mention Fife? But thank you for doing so.

Is that not your agenda on most of your posts on Tiger Woods? To discredit him as a golfer and person and to make him synonymous with a "tarnished decade or two which on mass has not a great deal to show for itself"? Do you do this as a round about way to promote Old Tom Morris? You didn't mention it but you don't have to...most, if not all, of your posts are a continuum of the same ideas and agenda.

A Golden Age, for me the word Age gives the game away, its seems to refer to everything that happened in that Age, but again it’s only my opinion. I note your meaning of the word Golden Age to mean and I quote “ I don't really agree that "Golden Age" means the best time of all, but maybe more of a period of 'wealth' in quality golf course design and construction”.

Well, I would never have come to that conclusion, would it be possible to forward a dictionary or phrase book covering your take on the important words, in fact all the words and phrases you may perhaps use when posting on this site. I just want to fully understand your meaning just in case for some reason I feel you maybe trying to upset or insult me, which of course I know is not your intention.

My quote, which was actually "Also, I don't really agree that "Golden Age" means the best time of all, but maybe more of a period of 'wealth' in quality golf course design and construction," was directed towards the entire group, and in particular the members who were trying to define what a "Golden Age" is.

I trust you enjoy the new American courses in the coming year and look forward to a detailed photo post on each hole.

If you mean a "detailed" photo post like the insulting and idiotic junk photo threads consisting of multiple pictures of the same angle and the same hole as well as threads detailing member's hotel rooms I would rather not.

I would appreciate it if you would take a shot at comparing the best golf courses of the United States over the past decade compared to the best designs of Old Tom's "Age" and which holds more merit.

Melvyn   

[Tom_Doak]

For starters, Kingsbarns, Castle Stuart, Machrihanish Dunes & the Renaissance Club are among the finest golf courses that have been built in Scotland since WWII.    

Are you trying to make Melvyn's point?  That is a very short and weak list compared to Dornoch, St. Andrews, Prestwick, Turnberry, Muirfield, North Berwick, et al.

Then again, just to try and build three holes on "land fit for purpose" at The Renaissance Club has required several years of permitting attempts, and we are still not there yet.  I think Melvyn has helped pass laws to bar any of us young whippersnappers from having a go at Old Tom's record on his home turf; and he refuses to acknowledge the many new courses around the world which Old Tom would have been excited to see.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Pat

My friend, you are so full of bile that I feel it is hardly worth responding. Do you think your venom is what makes this site or is it in fact destroying this site?

For all my sins I hope that I have reminded some Members and readers of the core values of golf which I presume attracted them to the game in the first place.

Thanks for the New Year wishes

Melvyn

PS I thought that Kyle Henderson and James Boon photo records of Scotland and Askernish were excellent and showed a quality and understand which I believe many enjoyed. Sorry you feel it is beneath you to share.     

PPS I believe I was also one trying to define The Golden Age in my post

[Melvyn Morrow]

Tom

You said
Then again, just to try and build three holes on "land fit for purpose" at The Renaissance Club has required several years of permitting attempts, and we are still not there yet.  I think Melvyn has helped pass laws to bar any of us young whippersnappers from having a go at Old Tom's record on his home turf; and he refuses to acknowledge the many new courses around the world which Old Tom would have been excited to see.

Tom I am surprised at you, am I not allowed to make up my own mind, do I not have that right? Also have I not stated on many occasions I am not involved with golf in anyway and have no authority to ban, slow or stop any development or project.

In fact have I not sent you information on one or two sites last year that might be of interest in converting into a golf course. Gordon Irving has mentioned he will be looking into one of my locations late this spring. As for American courses, having not seen them I have voiced no comment which I would have considered the right thing to do.

As for whether Old Tom would or would not like them, you have no idea whatsoever, on this my friend you are not an expert, so should you be making such a statement in light of you accusing me of “refuses to acknowledge”.

May I leave you with one thought, had you designers/architects taken more care in selecting the sites you are willing to work upon we might, just might be in a New Golden Age, but clearly the quality of the work does not seem to match that of the period between the wars. Now whose fault is that, mine or yours (yours being all the designers/architects). It’s your industry, you are responsible for the finished item not me, so perhaps Land Fit for Purpose would not be a bad basis to start your designs.

I hope you continue to match the challenge you set yourself and golf flourishes and courses reflect the 20’s era (which I believed had no cart tracks, just in case you guys have forgotten).

Melvyn

[PCCraig]

Pat

My friend, you are so full of bile that I feel it is hardly worth responding. Do you think your venom is what makes this site or is it in fact destroying this site?

Calling me "full of bile" and "venom" is a bit hypocritical considering the many dismissive and hateful comments you've made on this site not only to me but to other members who may not totally agree with your stances, let alone in this thread?

"a weak a pathetic administration who job it is to protect the Game of Golf"

"he can use the electronic distance aids instead of using his own brain and eyes, in fact I sometimes wonder why these people ever took up golf in the first place"

"tenth Golden Age and is it because someone has produced some rather good course?"

"Sorry Mr. Doak and others, times are a changing and you will have to look at another way to keep your family fed and housed, but don’t fret, as it will just be another Golden Age, perhaps the Age of the Terminator may come to life and be sent back in time to eliminate me – may make a film out of that theme, what do you think?"

"You must be joking a second Golden Age over the last 20-30 years - are you being serious, please tell me you are joking"

"So Gold has been yet again devalued"

"As for whether Old Tom would or would not like them, you have no idea whatsoever, on this my friend you are not an expert, so should you be making such a statement in light of you accusing me of “refuses to acknowledge”. "

Not to mention the most outrageous comment which shows your complete narrow mindedness:

"Golden Age – I wish I could see it but I just see a tarnished decade or two which on mass has not a great deal to show for itself"

I'm not sure how disagreeing with you is destroying this site...or do you mean destroying in the same sense as you say the game of golf has been destroyed since Old Tom's days...by growing to the masses and almost every region of the world? By evolving and becoming a better game? By building and creating new courses on new fantastic sites after adding on to the principals of the previous "Golden Age’s” designers?

 

For all my sins I hope that I have reminded some Members and readers of the core values of golf which I presume attracted them to the game in the first place.

Your "core values" are not realistic anymore in your strict sense.

Thanks for the New Year wishes

Melvyn

PS I thought that Kyle Henderson and James Boon photo records of Scotland and Askernish were excellent and showed a quality and understand which I believe many enjoyed. Sorry you feel it is beneath you to share.    

Those were fantastic photo threads done with great care. Unfortunately those great threads have been lost in the numerous pointless photo threads, your Tiger Woods vendetta threads, and your "core value" threads.

PPS I believe I was also one trying to define The Golden Age in my post

[Melvyn Morrow]

Pat

Simple solution, don’t mention my name and I will not have to respond to your comments. Everyone wins, but you have to leave me out of your posts otherwise you are, I presume requiring a response.

I was just submitting my opinion on what was referred to as the second Golden Age, can we get back to the topic instead of your hate for my posts or are you determent to drag this site down to your level?

Melvyn