Ballyneal Hole #2

[Scott Szabo]

I watched with anticipation as the group put together their respective best 18 holes and didn't see any mention of Ballyneal #2.  It didn't come as much surprise that it was left off, but my question is why?

I love the somewhat blind nature of the tee shot, as you cannot see the ball come to rest.  Once you get over the hill and down to your ball, you find what kind of lie/stance you are left with.  Which could be severely sidehill or downhill.  I simply love the way the green sits in relation to the hole, with the front left bunker no place to miss.  The fairway short and right of the green is banked to allow a run-up shot around the bunker to reach the green.

It's a 490 yard brute, but can play quite short with any kind of helping wind and a monster into the wind.  I've played it driver wedge and driver fairway wood and pitch.  The way that hole can play with different winds is exhilarating.

Does the hole come too early in the round to garner much rememberance?  Or are there just that many more holes that are better?  #2 has always been a favorite of mine, but it doesn't seem to be for many others.

[Jim Colton]

Scott,

 I was definitely going to pick it, then realized late in the game that I didn't have any par 5's yet.  I had to switch my 6th hole from a par 3 to a par 5 and therefore had to pick a par 3 for the 2nd hole.  Otherwise I would've been all over it, especially after Chip stole #10 from me.

 I love the 2nd hole!

 A fun little exercise would be to come in after the draft is over and to come up with a course based on what's leftover.

  Jim

[Tim Bert]

I love this hole!

The 2nd at Ballyneal is one of my favorite on the course.  The problem I encountered was that the 2nd at Pacific Dunes is also one of my favorites and too many holes from Pacific Dunes were going too quickly.

Not sure why the others didn't touch it.

[Matt_Ward]

Scott:

The great thing about #2 is how much of a different hole it is from #1 -- great change of pace hole. My first time I played it I hit a drive and got my tee ball down to the 120 yard mark -- there was slight wind behind me but nothing more than 5 mph at best. Just love the blind feeling it provides and no doubt when weather / wind changes the nature of the hole changes dramatically.

[Scott Szabo]

Holes 1 and 2, differing by over 100 yards in length, can almost require the same club in depending on hole location and placement of the drive. 

Great connection between the two Matt.

[John Mayhugh]

Jim,
You scared me away from picking any Ballyneal holes with threats of disqualification!

I do like your idea of putting together an almost collection and had plans to do that after everyone was through picking.  One thing interesting about the exercise is how many great holes there are to choose from.


Tim,
I didn't pick the second hole because I've played it poorly pretty much every time. A little too long for me, even with the firmness.  I've seemingly been in that short right bunker every time, and getting down in three from there isn't guaranteed for me.

There were several Ballyneal holes that I did consider picking, but the ones I really like were generally ones where I had other strong preferences right off the bat (3, 7, 8, 11, 18). 

[Kalen Braley]

While #2 is a good hole , I too had my sights on 3, 7, and 8 but were taken before i could get to them at the appropriate place in the draft.

Unfortunatly #2 just doesn't stick out that much in my mind and would likely be in my lower half if I had to rank all the holes at Ballyneal.  And its no knock on 2, just speaks to the quality of other holes...

[Tom Huckaby]

While of course having played the course only 5 times, I'd clearly defer to the several members who post in here....

I'm kinda with Kalen on this.  Ask me to pick the most difficult holes, and 2 is right there.  Into the wind it's unreachable (for me anyway), down wind it might even be tougher as stopping a ball on that green becomes quite problematic.  Either way it's a very tough golf hole.

But ask for the greatest/best holes there?

I'd pick quite a few before #2.  And again, it's not that 2 is a bad hole, oh far far far from it... it's more that so many others are so damn great.

[Scott Szabo]

Kalen, Huck:

Which others do you find are far greater than number 2?  Why?  To me, #2 has about everything you could want in a hole.  Length, versatility, strategy off the tee as well as into the green.  I don't know what it's missing?

[Paul OConnor]

When we were out at Ballyneal last fall, teed off straight into a gale, blowing rain.  

On #2, after hitting driver, 3 wood, six iron to the front of the green I turned to my caddy and said "Is it snowing?" "No," he replied, "it's sleeting."  I was frozen and completely soaked through my rain gear after the second hole.  Ended up playing 45 holes that day.  Glorious golf!  Never sniffed par on #2 though.

[Tim Bert]

Interesting mix of opinions here. While I'd put #2 in the upper half of my favorite holes at the course I would probably also put it in the lower half of difficulty. I am not long off the tee, but I have had realistic opportunities to be on the green in two at least half the times I have played it. The times I haven't I have put it short of the green in a spot where up and down would be tough but possible. I think it is a versatile long par 4 that has never played the full length on the card.

Easier than 6, 10, 13, and 17 (depending upon the day's wind) to name several par 4s off the top of my head.

[Scott Szabo]

I'd agree with Tim as to the difficulty.  If the wind's up, forget it.  But otherwise I think it plays easier than the other par fours mentioned.  Of course, depending on the pin, it can be utterly difficult.  A back right pin is probably one of the hardest to get to because of the front left bunker and the firmness of the turf.

The tee ball that hugs the left side can catch mounding and go all the way to the bottom of the hill, while a shot to the right doesn't get that result.  The approach is very rarely from a level lie, only compounding things, and usually must be landed short of the green to hold it.  That's where the fun begins - trying to fit the approach between the front left bunker and the junk on the right.  Watching a shot land short and feed back to a left hand pin is some good stuff!

[John Kirk]

The thing I like best about Ballyneal #2 is the early chance to hit a long approach shot into a green well designed for the challenge.  Without wind, it's usually an early fairway wood or long iron.

[K. Krahenbuhl]

From '09...

[Jim Colton]

I enjoy #2 because I've managed to screw it up in just about every way possible.

- Yank (for me) a drive into the short right bunker, take 1-3 to get out
- Block one into the junk left, battle the yucca (I made a 9 the second time I played it)
- hit it in the fairway short of the turbo kick, miss the green with a long iron
- blast one past the turbo kick, aim for the other side of the nob by the right greenside bunkers and fail to execute
- reach the green in regulation or hit through the green, only to still make bogey or worse.

Oh what fun!  Like John K. said, it's a long iron early in the round.  Even in the rare alignment of stars where I hit a good drive, I'm trying to scoot a knock down shot up the front of the green or playing one off the backside of that nob.  Usually it's a shot that I'm less than comfortable with, especially less than 10 minutes into the round.  Also, I'm not very good.

I think 6 & 17 are tougher, but 2 is probably harder for me than 10 & 13.  Of course I rarely play those two holes all the way back.

[Scott Szabo]

Kyle,

Where is the first pic taken from?  From the tee we usually play, that view is not available.  It's much more blind. 

Also, the pictures don't appear to show how much down the hill it plays.

I'm not saying it's my favorite hole, but it is definitely in my top five.  I'm surprised there isn't more love shown for this hole than there is.

[K. Krahenbuhl]

Kyle,

Where is the first pic taken from?  From the tee we usually play, that view is not available.  It's much more blind. 

Also, the pictures don't appear to show how much down the hill it plays.

I'm not saying it's my favorite hole, but it is definitely in my top five.  I'm surprised there isn't more love shown for this hole than there is.

That picture was taken from the back tee up on top of the dune.

[Tom Huckaby]

The only thing that puzzles me hear are Tim and Scott questioning the difficulty of the hole.  Wow, I'd say it's the second toughest hole there (17 being the killer).  But then again I have played it 5 times and three have been into a very strong wind, and the two other times the downwind made the green tough to hold too (I have not got it anywhere close to where I had a wedge in).  Fairway woods or hybrids into the wind off tricky lies, well... mastery of those is a game with which I am unfamiliar.

But I'd also say John K. is right, it's fun to face these things, especially early in the round.  It's an eye-opener, for sure.  The kick-ins into the green are also way cool.  But you've got a course filled with things like that as it is.....

So is it a great hole?  Yes sir.  Is it a fun hole?  Yes sir.  Is it one of the best on that course?  Not as I see things. It's tough for sure, but it's straight and requires less thought and strategic choice than most other holes there (but MORE than most other holes elsewhere).   Just like Kalen, if I were to rank the golf holes there based on fun (which is really all I care about, and requirement for strategic choice is a strong element of fun for me), it falls in the lower half.  At any other course that might be denigration.  At Ballyneal, that means it's BETTER than quite a few holes, which is actually a very strong compliment.

TH

ps - my recollection is that most times I have played it from the pictured tee, all the way back, or close to that.  I do recall at least one blind-ish tee shot though.  My memory sucks.

[Scott Szabo]

We usually play the next tee forward, I think it's about 480 from there rather than 490, but the view is much more blind as the tee is a bit lower and to the left.  At least from what I can tell.

[Scott Szabo]

Tom,

Without any significant wind, I'd put holes 6, 10, 17 and 18 as tougher than #2, as far as par fours so.  #13 depending on which tee is played can also be harder, IMO.  I'd have to rate it about 6 or 7 as far as handicap goes, not easy by any means, but I don't think it's all that back breaking.

The tee we typically play is a bit lower and to the left, maybe 480 or so?  Not much difference in length, but the tee shot allows for the dunes ahead of the tee to make the shot a bit blind - think #6 at Sand Hills with the front left pin and you have some idea of the nature.  The tee shot reminds me a bit of some of the holes at Sand Hills - #10 in particular, where you can play to the left side and catch the slot and have your ball run forward quite a bit.

I also like the fact that you are not quite sure how your ball ended up until you actually reach it.  The view coming over the crest of the hill is one of my favorites for sure.

[Tom Huckaby]

Scott:

I cannot imagine playing that course without significant wind.  I suppose then I will have to trust you.  But isn't there nearly always some sort of wind there?  The members shall have to chime in.

I have played the tee you are talking about... and yes that is cool....

But I stand by all the rest I have said.

TH

[Scott Szabo]

Huck,

Maybe we need to define significant wind.  15-20 mph is quite common, but I wouldn't consider that significant wind. To me, 30+ is significant, and we do get that from time to time, sometimes much greater.  But there are quite a few days in which there is an insignificant amount of wind, say less than 10mph.

I would say probably 2/3 of my rounds at Ballyneal have been played with single digit wind speeds.

But those who play it more often would definitely be a better judge than I.

[Tom Huckaby]

I do course rating where these things matter, and even I can't estimate by mph... so I tend to think of it in terms of clubs... and I have yet to play that hole in less than a two club wind.  Perhaps bad (or good) luck for me, but man I was sure told that was normal.

In any case as I said from the beginning, the members can sure assess this best.  I'll just go with what they say.  If they think this is one of the best holes there, then case closed.

TH

[Jerry Kluger]

Huck: Is that really you - where have you been hiding?

[Tim Bert]

I should also clarify that I have played a very limited number of rounds at Ballyneal (less than 10.)  In 2/3 of those rounds, I'd say the wind was 10mph or less.  A couple more were probably 10-20, and I've really only played one round in extreme wind.

I probably under-stated the difficulty a little to try and make my point.  Maybe not lower half, but probably middle third.  And I stand by my assessment of the other par 4s earlier in the thread.  #10 and #17 have always played tougher.  Usually #6 and #13 as well.  I could probably throw #18 in that argument too.

As for pure fun, there's a lot of fun being thrown around at Ballyneal, but I still count this one up near the top for fun factor.  The somewhat blind tee shot, with a chance to catch a giant turbo boost (or multiple turbo boosts) as well as a long iron approach that can run for 50+ yards after it hits the ground (as well as watching the stuff that is running feed left and hoping it stays out of the front bunker.)  Plus, the green has some fun putts.

Other than the manufactured running out of daylight, mid-length par 4 from the front 4th tee to the 7th green, this is right up there.