Essex County or The Knoll Club? You choose...

[Jay Flemma]

Tough choice...The Knoll Club MAY have better greens, but Essex has cooler holes...

I'll choose Essex County...especially that incredible back nine...a great Eden Hole, 12 with elements of three different holes, a great Principle's Nose at 16, 14 with a Lion;s mouth and punchbowl, a biarritz at 15, a cape at 17 and many other solid features.

How about the rest of you?  Essex or Knoll West?

[Jaeger Kovich]

Haven't been to Essex yet, but Knoll has a double plateau, a great biarritz, and one of the best Short holes I have seen.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jay,

They're both really quite terrific, but, The Knoll is consistently good from # 1 to # 18.

No one argues that Essex County has one of the best back nines in the State or Metro area, but, it takes all 18 holes to make a good golf course, so I give The Knoll the nod by a nose.

[Mike Cirba]

Post-restoration, Essex County based on the presentation of all of the holes as they were meant to be.

Now, if the same architect(s) are turned loose fully on The Knoll....and properly funded....

Then we're talking!   

[Brad Fleischer]

Post resto are some of you saying that the Knoll in it's current state is better than EC ? It's a sin that I have not checked out the knoll
being that I live with in an hour but I have always been told it's in brutal shape hence the reason why I always pass . I hope to see it for myself this spring/summer but I can't imagine it being better than EC ALL things considered. What good is a great layout if there is no turf on the fairways or grass on the greens ? Or for that matter the layout not playing the way it was meant to.

I have been told that the resto work at EC elevevated it to a whole new level. I played it once a long time ago and thought it was good than but after seeing some of the photos and reading the discussions I wouldn't think it would be even close between the two .  I guess I will have to see for myself .

Fire away

Brad
 

[George_Bahto]

Brad:  "What good is a great layout if there is no turf on the fairways or grass on the greens ? Or for that matter the layout not playing the way it was meant to. "

Are you kidding? you are way off base - the Knoll is finished and in great shape - Golf Digest recently gave it the Best muni in NJ

Mike - yes, itz done

being a muni, and semi interested crews, etc,  The Knoll will not be as manicured as a top level private course but you will be in for a treat when you play it.  Fairway bunkers were completed last year.

I've been protecting the originality of the course for many years so I did not add any new strategies off the tee or move any of the original bunkers because the course - it is a Charles Banks textbook, esp the greens

This course is difficult to score on as is so additional bunkering is not necessary. New back tees are being added that will bring the course up to 7,000 yds. You will have trouble with the course at the present 6,700 yards

[Mike Cirba]

George,

You restored The Knoll and didn't tell me!?!?   

Wow...I must have been out of it this past year!!  I'll have to get over for a look-see.   

[George_Bahto]

George,

You restored The Knoll and didn't tell me!?!?   

Wow...I must have been out of it this past year!!  I'll have to get over for a look-see.   

itz been an on-going 6 year project .......     muni's can't think of too many things at once you know - (fun: had a new contrator every year !!  - going out to low-bidder is really a great idea ()   

what have you been doing?  you've been doing Merion

[Mike Cirba]

Touche', George! 

[Jay Flemma]

Brad:  "What good is a great layout if there is no turf on the fairways or grass on the greens ? Or for that matter the layout not playing the way it was meant to. "

Are you kidding? you are way off base - the Knoll is finished and in great shape - Golf Digest recently gave it the Best muni in NJ

Mike - yes, itz done

being a muni, and semi interested crews, etc,  The Knoll will not be as manicured as a top level private course but you will be in for a treat when you play it.  Fairway bunkers were completed last year.

I've been protecting the originality of the course for many years so I did not add any new strategies off the tee or move any of the original bunkers because the course - it is a Charles Banks textbook, esp the greens

This course is difficult to score on as is so additional bunkering is not necessary. New back tees are being added that will bring the course up to 7,000 yds. You will have trouble with the course at the present 6,700 yards

I'll vouch for that...it's in super shape.  We really are talking about the choice between a chateau briand and a double porterhouse...

[Matt_Ward]

Guys:

No disrespect to The Knoll -- hats off George there -- but ECCC is one of the state's top ten layouts.

The Knoll has been a slow work in progress -- glad to see the improvments and no doubt 2010 will be an exciting time frame to see how much more work needs to be done.

ECCC is simply one of the state's most underrated layouts -- not from the insider Jersey crowd that knows better -- but from outsiders who when they hear of the name think only of the MA one with the similar name.

[Brad Fleischer]

Brad:  "What good is a great layout if there is no turf on the fairways or grass on the greens ? Or for that matter the layout not playing the way it was meant to. "

Are you kidding? you are way off base - the Knoll is finished and in great shape - Golf Digest recently gave it the Best muni in NJ

Mike - yes, itz done

being a muni, and semi interested crews, etc,  The Knoll will not be as manicured as a top level private course but you will be in for a treat when you play it.  Fairway bunkers were completed last year.

I've been protecting the originality of the course for many years so I did not add any new strategies off the tee or move any of the original bunkers because the course - it is a Charles Banks textbook, esp the greens

This course is difficult to score on as is so additional bunkering is not necessary. New back tees are being added that will bring the course up to 7,000 yds. You will have trouble with the course at the present 6,700 yards


George

I have no problem standing corrected but thats what I have been told about the layout and had no idea it was done . If that is not true than even better ! I will def get out there this spring/summer. I am looking forward to seeing the work that was done. That said since you had a huge hand in EC were do you think this course stands between the two ?

Brad

[Mike Sweeney]

I've been protecting the originality of the course for many years so I did not add any new strategies off the tee or move any of the original bunkers because the course - it is a Charles Banks textbook, esp the greens

It's real close but I would agree with Patrick and give The Knoll a bump over ECCC for this reason. My only beef with The Knoll is that while the course is super walker friendly, the management policies are not. The course is in fine shape but obviously not to the level of ECCC.

Uncle George,

It sounds like a good time for a Spring outing at The Knoll ?

[George_Bahto]

Brad - you asked:   "That said since you had a huge hand in EC were do you think this course stands between the two ?"


 I can't go there   -   People ask me which hole I like best at National also

Unfortunately I'm not a "comparer-guy"  -  never was ....      even Brad ejected me from Golfweek ratings 

I try to get each of these courses to be the best they can be, given internal club financing, etc.

I will say this though, If ECCC or Sleepy Hollow had the Knoll's greens on we would have some kind of course. 

[Brad Fleischer]

Brad - you asked:   "That said since you had a huge hand in EC were do you think this course stands between the two ?"


 I can't go there   -   People ask me which hole I like best at National also

Unfortunately I'm not a "comparer-guy"  -  never was ....      even Brad ejected me from Golfweek ratings 

I try to get each of these courses to be the best they can be, given internal club financing, etc.

I will say this though, If ECCC or Sleepy Hollow had the Knoll's greens on we would have some kind of course. 

Fair enough

[Ron Csigo]

George,

I fell in love with the Knoll when I first played it back in 2006.  In 2009, it's the course I played most often.  IMO, it has the most interesting greens of any municipal course in NJ, maybe some of the best in the state.  Plus, the par 3s are all solid.

Which holes are they building new tee boxes on?

I've yet to play Essex County.  So for now, it's the Knoll for me.

[PThomas]

i haven't played The Knoll CLub but if its better than EC, wow!

[George_Bahto]

Ron Csigo

They just rebuilt the major tees on all the holes - there may be 3 or 4 that did not get completed by the time cold weather stopped the progress.

My plan for new tees:

* move #2 back a bit - very difficult hole now

* I have an interesting new tee for #4, creating a dogleg and lengthening the hole quite a bit, but I’ll probably have trouble selling that one

* #8 - new tee just off the left of 7-green - probably adds 25-yds

* #9 new tee back and slightly left, about 25-30 yds

* #11 new tee adding about 30 yards - the soil has been laying there in the woods for the past 2 years

* #14 - new tees adds 25 yards to an already difficult hole

* #15 goes back about 40-yards - we’ve played it from here for a long time (informally) - this tee is directly behind 14-green and it put all the original Banks hazards back into play on the tee-ball as well as second shot

* #16 goes back as far as I can get away with (close to the practice green)

* #18 new tee is my favorite one. The hole is tough now but the new tee goes back 30 yards and over the right (there is pathway into the woods there) - a line of trees comes out on the right and the first (on the left) fairway bunkers will now be in play - the carry will average about 225 on a diagonal. #18 at The Knoll would be about 470-475 par-4.

The course will then be just about 7,000 yards

The course plays tougher than the yardage - interestingly, even most of the low handicappers still don't go back to the blue tees (too hard at 6,750) but end up playing the MGA "plates"

Actually )over the years) they never even had the blue's marked until club championship time.  As soon as the super moves the tees back, the  whining begins   

[Matt_Ward]

The thing about The Knoll / West (please don't anyone confuse it with the ptiiful East layout) is that it needs a full season in which ALL the items George mentioned have truly been sampled.

I have played the course off and on for well over 30 years. Credit George for opening up the eyes of those ignorant staff people over the many years on what truly can be done there.

However ...

The Knoll is not AHEAD of ECCC now.

ECCC is a finished product that put considerable energy, time and $$ to get the place far beyond where it was previously. Much has been written -- justifiably so -- about the superb back nine but the front now has much more to offer.

I've said this before -- when people play ECCC for the first time and shake their head in amazement -- the first question is how did such a course escape attention. The answer is a simple one. Too many people -- too many raters -- too many media people -- are enamored with just the narrow listing of the same courses over and over again.

ECCC is a demanding layout and so entertaining from a design side of things. If anyone reads the Doak comments from CG I have to say the ECCC Doak walked is not the same one you see today.

In regards to The Knoll -- hats off to George for upgrading the course and adding the various tee boxes. From a selfish standpoint I urged George on to provide appropriate new tee boxes -- especially when lengthening a few of the holes to bring them up to the design ingredient originally intended by Banks. Looking forward to playing the "new" 18th from the boxes that have been added.

[Cliff Hamm]

Have not played The Knoll but plan on it next time in NJ.  Called once and told only shotgun start.  Is that so for non-members?  Also, anyone know the greens fee?  thanks

[Ron Csigo]

Have not played The Knoll but plan on it next time in NJ.  Called once and told only shotgun start.  Is that so for non-members?  Also, anyone know the greens fee?  thanks

That's the one drawback with the club.  They have a lot of outings on weekdays and do shot gun starts off of #1 & #10.  I'm not sure about the weekends.  Also, the greens fees were ~$67 in 2009 and that included cart.  Plus, they only accept cash from non-members.

[Ron Csigo]

Ron Csigo


* I have an interesting new tee for #4, creating a dogleg and lengthening the hole quite a bit, but I’ll probably have trouble selling that one

* #18 new tee is my favorite one. The hole is tough now but the new tee goes back 30 yards and over the right (there is pathway into the woods there) - a line of trees comes out on the right and the first (on the left) fairway bunkers will now be in play - the carry will average about 225 on a diagonal. #18 at The Knoll would be about 470-475 par-4.

Thanks George.  Congratulations on the upgrades.

Just trying to imagine where you are thinking about putting a new tee box on #4?  The current tee box is already close to the par-3 3rd green.

Also, the lengthening of #18 will make this hole an absolute bear.  470-475 yard par-4 playing to an elevated green.  It will play more like a 500 yard par-4 with the new tee box.

[George_Bahto]

18 was always a bear but with the new equipment etc some guys are hitting short irons into the green  BOOOOOOOOO

the tee on #3:

Stand on 3-green and look directly down the centerline of hole 4. Now to your right, just over beyond the long side bunker, you will see a group of birch trees (well, it may only be one tree ??)  -  that's the location of the tee I would like to see. From there you make the hole a dog-leg right as an optional new tee - you keep the original tee intact, of course, to preserve originality AND, the main thing, you now have reason to put the 4th fairway back where it is supposed to be ie:  ONE HALF FAIRWAY TO THE LEFT OF WHERE IT IS NOW.

I can't get them to move that fairway to the left more than one foot per year.

The centerline of the 4th fairway is where the left line of rough is now. You are supposed to be coming in over the Lion's Mouth bunker and right down the spine on the "hog's-back" green, hence the name of the hole; Hog's-Back

[Jay Flemma]

I agree with you George; they should move that fwy left, but everybody, the work is stellar:

http://www.golfobserver.com/features/Flemma/FlemmaKnoll1_030108.php

[Patrick_Mucci]

Uncle George,

Do you think The Knoll would consider hosting one of my GCA.com get togethers this spring ?

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