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Patrick_Mucci

If a golf course is intended to be an examination of
« on: January 15, 2010, 05:20:59 AM »
the golfer's playing skills, what part of the exam does the third hole at NGLA present ?

John Shimp's comment about the difficulty associated with playing # 3, the "Alps" hole for the first time got me thinking about playing it, for the first time and with repeat play.

The more I thought about it, the more I felt that playing the "Alps" hole, a hole that appears early in the round, was more of a mental test than a playing test.

"For the first time player, from the moment you leave the 2nd green and begin your walk to the 3rd tee, you start looking to see where the hole is/goes.

You see the 3rd tee, you see the large diagonal fairway bunker and the bunkers cut into the large hill, you see the fairway, you see the large hill covered in deep rough, but, where is the green ?

So, before you even get to the tee, elements of doubt have begun to creep into your head.
Where's the green ?  Where do I drive my ball in that massive expanse of a fairway ?   Should I cut the far side of the large diagonal bunker ?  Can I drive far enough to cut the far side of the large fairway bunker ?  Can I drive it through the fairway ?  Should I drive left, straight, right, WHERE DO I GO ?

As the golfer stands on the tee, looking out into the unknown, those same thought cloud his mind.

I know what you're saying... sure, the golfer is confused the first time he sees/plays the hole, but, that all goes away with repeat play.

Fortunately, it doesn't.

One of the great assets of the 3rd hole is its massive green, a green that's fairly shallow at 27 yards, but, very long from far left to far right.  A green that's really a "greens within a green" with different tiers, elevations and contours.

So, as the golfer stands on the 3rd tee, repeat golfers have an edge, a comfort factor in generally knowing where they'd prefer to hit ther drive.

So, they hit their drive into the massive fairway.

The beauty of that fairway is its slopes.
A golfer can have a downhill lie, an uphill lie, a sidehill lie or any combination of lies.
So now, the second uncertainty enters the golfer's mind, his lie and the lie's effect on his club selection and ability to execute.

The third uncertainty now enters the golfers mind.
Where the F*#@& do I aim ?

All the golfer sees is a massive hill covered in knee deep fescue, looming onerously in front of him.

Now, the fourth uncertainty enters his mind,..... I know my distance, but, with this lie, can I get the club I selected. up quick enough to get over that huge hill looming in front of me

The fifth uncertainty is, where's the wind ?  Down here in this valley, I may not be able to feel it, but, I know it's up there, how will it effect my ball once it climbs that hill and is met with the full effect of the wind ?

So, having mulled all of the above, the golfer swings away.
His immediate thought is on the quality of the contact, the ball clearing the hill and the balls direction.

Distance, remains the next, the sixth  uncertainty.  If he hit the ball as intended, did he gauge all of the factors correctly, enabling his ball to reach the desired section of the green ?

He has no clue, only hope.

Many now walk, with great anticipation or intrepidation, up that big hill, hoping for the best.

Here's the best part, like Forest Gump, where your ball ends up is like a box of chocolates., you never know.

Sometimes as you crest the hill and gaze upon the green, you're shocked to see that NO BALL is on the green, BUT, you thought you hit a perfect shot.  How in the F*#@ can your ball NOT be on the green.   Oh wait, I did hit that shot great, maybe it's in the hole ?
Now, you're elated, an eagle on the 3rd hole, surely, you'll pick up 3 shots on the field.  You walk briskly to the cup, you look in. F*#@, there's no ball in he hole, WHERE'S my ball.  Now the search begins.

Only when you've crested the hole do you understand and appreciate the location of the hole as it relates to all of the other features at the green and back in the fairway.

The flight of your ball can have a huge impact on how it reacts once it comes back to earth and is influenced by the slopes and contourns that abound, in and around that green.

Many times balls are fed off the green, down to the left.
Many times, balls come up short, into the frointing bunker or swale, and, other times balls go long, into the berm behind the green, probably the worst of the options.

Now, you're depressed, and deeply stressed, you thought you planned and/or hit a good shot, how can the golfing fates have been so cruel ?  And, how am I going to recover from here ?

The architecture has challenged you will, and, your ability to overcome adversity.
Whiners will think, "this isn't a good hole, this isn't a FAIR hole"  poor me, blah blah, blah.
This will erode their chances of making a very good recovery, which isn't easy even with the best of attitudes.

And, here's the critical part.
That's a tough green to recover to.  It's also a difficult green to putt, so, the unwary, the careless, the whiner, focused on his perceived bad break may not focus sufficiently, resulting in a marginal shot with his recovery, and, a THREE PUTT and a double bogey.

Now he's devastated, he hit a perfect drive, a good second and the perceived unfairness of this hole produced a double bogey, and, it's only the 3rd hole in the round, he thinks, "my round is ruined", and thus, the golfer begins his tailspin on the remaining 15 holes.

So, as much as planning and execution are minimum requirements for a good round, mental preparation and more importantly, mental toughness may be the most valuable asset a golfer can have when playing the "Alps" hole at NGLA.

The architecture at the 3rd hole at NGLA INHERENTLY crafts that scenario, it CREATES that test, an unrelenting test, a test of your will, at the tee, the approach, the recovery and putting.

And, since the test comes early in the round, it may determine the outcome of the entire day.

What other holes, and their component features, create that test, at the tee, approach, recovery and putts ?

Isn't it the totality of that test, the sum of the subset of tests, that make that hole so great, so memorable, for the first time and repeat golfer ?

Is there any other hole like it in the U.S. ?

Mike Sweeney

Re: If a golf course is intended to be an examination of
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2010, 06:28:36 AM »

Is there any other hole like it in the U.S. ?

There are a bunch of Alps holes around (Yale 10 and 12, Bethpage 15) but they tend to be fairly straight forward off the drive. Basically you just want to grab the fairway for the next shot.

National #3 has strategy when you walk on the tee with the tiny right side being the best landing area for the second shot.

The only hole that is nuttier/fun/confounding in the US for me is Yale 18 but it just does not pull it off like National's Alps. At Yale you can feel like you got ripped off at times. I have never felt that way at National's Alps.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2010, 08:03:22 AM by Mike Sweeney »

Anthony Gray

Re: If a golf course is intended to be an examination of
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2010, 08:56:56 AM »


  Pat,

  I think it tests the caddy's skill more than the players. He holds a club up and says hit it hear. I was on in two the only time I played it. I have played THE Alps a few times and like the aiming stones much better.

  I think if the Alps at NGLA came latter in the round it would be better. You hit on my point in the opening, about the mental aspect. It does offer confusion on the tee box. Which is magnified by the confusion of the preceeding two tee boxes. Where am I going and what is over the hill? If those holes were not consecative it would be better. The Alps at Prestwick comes at a nice time in the round......and it has one of the most famous bunkers in the world to cross of the tee.

  Anthony

   

Phil Benedict

Re: If a golf course is intended to be an examination of
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2010, 09:24:59 AM »

Is there any other hole like it in the U.S. ?

There are a bunch of Alps holes around (Yale 10 and 12, Bethpage 15) but they tend to be fairly straight forward off the drive. Basically you just want to grab the fairway for the next shot.

National #3 has strategy when you walk on the tee with the tiny right side being the best landing area for the second shot.

The only hole that is nuttier/fun/confounding in the US for me is Yale 18 but it just does not pull it off like National's Alps. At Yale you can feel like you got ripped off at times. I have never felt that way at National's Alps.

Mike,

Isn't the third at Yale ("Blind") the appropriate comparison given the blind second shot?

Mike Sweeney

Re: If a golf course is intended to be an examination of
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2010, 09:47:43 AM »

Isn't the third at Yale ("Blind") the appropriate comparison given the blind second shot?

Tee shot is often a 3 wood at Yale, but they have similar angles and elevations for sure. Second shot at Yale is often 8, 9, wedge so it is an easier shot as it over a hill rather than up a hill. Hybrid 3,4,5 is typical for me on the second shot at National.

Then there is the 3rd green at Yale .....  :'(

It basically confirms Patrick's theory of the uniqueness of The Alps at National and my guess is that CB Mac stacked the blind shots early to keep the dentist from Tennessee off his course!

John Mayhugh

Re: If a golf course is intended to be an examination of
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2010, 12:50:36 PM »
I haven't played that many Alps holes, but seems that the blind dogleg effect is what makes this hole so much different from all the others.  Not only is your approach blind and sharply uphill, but your angle varies a lot depending on your position in the fairway.

This would be a fun one to go back and play approach shots over & over.  I wondered if trying to get up & down from the fairway on the top of the hill might be a good plan for someone with my skill level.

Bill_McBride

Re: If a golf course is intended to be an examination of
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2010, 03:27:10 PM »
The Alps at NGLA has a lot more golf hole than I have golf game.  My short tee shot added to the difficulty of that long second shot makes me think I would do better playing for 5 from the top of the fairway off to the right.

I can't remember, can you see the top of the flagstick from over there?  How about from the tee?

And yes, it's great fun ringing that bell.. ;D
« Last Edit: January 15, 2010, 11:01:47 PM by Bill_McBride »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: If a golf course is intended to be an examination of
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2010, 10:47:36 PM »
Anthony Gray,

I don't think an aiming stone/s would work at # 3 because the fairway is, effectively, so incredibly wide.

John Mayhugh,

I used to think the 3rd was a dogleg, but, it's almost dead straight, from tee to green.
It can play as a dogleg if the golfer misjudges or mishits his tee shot off the centerline.

I think the shot you allude to is far more difficult than you think, especially when the hole is cut far left, far right, or on the back tier.
The center of the green isn't a bad spot, but, even that location can leave you with a long, dicey putt.

Alex Miller

Re: If a golf course is intended to be an examination of
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2010, 11:10:41 PM »

Isn't the third at Yale ("Blind") the appropriate comparison given the blind second shot?

Tee shot is often a 3 wood at Yale, but they have similar angles and elevations for sure. Second shot at Yale is often 8, 9, wedge so it is an easier shot as it over a hill rather than up a hill. Hybrid 3,4,5 is typical for me on the second shot at National.

Then there is the 3rd green at Yale .....  :'(

It basically confirms Patrick's theory of the uniqueness of The Alps at National and my guess is that CB Mac stacked the blind shots early to keep the dentist from Tennessee off his course!

The current 3rd at Yale isn't Raynor's fault though. It's been moved inland from the original double punchbowl down by the water. Though I don't know if it was a blind approach back then.


I know NGLA comes up alot on here, but I never here about the prevailing wind. Is there one? Is it seasonal?

Patrick_Mucci

Re: If a golf course is intended to be an examination of
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2010, 11:22:38 PM »
Alex,

I believe that there are prevailing windS.

They tend to come from the South and Southwest.

I've also noticed that it may pay to play early since the outgoing nine doesn't get much in the way of a breeze in the morning, but, as the day goes by, the breeze picks up and can be at your back on the difficult back nine.

Kirk Stewart

Re: If a golf course is intended to be an examination of
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2010, 05:44:22 PM »
PM<

Any chance your New Years resolution was to revive the NGLA enchanted journey thread ?
« Last Edit: January 16, 2010, 10:44:09 PM by Kirk Stewart »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: If a golf course is intended to be an examination of
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2010, 07:49:29 PM »
Kirk,

If I get some decent free time where I can focus on the details, I'll do it.

Thanks for the reminder

V. Kmetz

Re: If a golf course is intended to be an examination of
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2010, 08:54:42 AM »
Hi again all,

Pat, your launch post was practically a prose poem on an profound aspect of Golf, as elicited by GCA.  I've got to say that the emotional dynamics you related are mostly true and authentic to my experience of certain rounds and many, many holes, but some of that honest portrayal can be mitigated by envisioning one's round in match play. 

In that format, team or individual, such a hole as #3 NGLA is thought of less as a "inscrutable round-destroyer" as it is an early obstacle that is tough for both parties.  When "4" doesn't matter as much as achieving "no worse or one better than the opponent" then such inscrutability serves as a guardian of the match fortunes.  It says to the guy who is in worse shape off the third tee than his opponent, "Hey look it's never over on this hole, play the best shot you can that keeps "5" well in the picture and you're likely to get a half."

Would these traits be retained if such a hole came later in the match?  Mostly, with the only difference being that later and later in the match it seems desirable to me that we want bold, good play to be rewarded and that a player who executes a quality drive on a hole like that should not have an advantage leveled by those, again, "inscrutable"  2nd-shot traits Pat with which accurately infuses his post.

Considering that aspect AND the fact that it is indeed the 3rd Hole, not the 15th or 17th, it calls attention to the sublime genius of physically routing and emotionally coordinating a mental tempo to the round.   The 3rd may be elevated another peg above its formidable tactile qualities precisely BECAUSE it comes at that juncture of the round.  It need not be a medal round destoyer if perspective is embraced about what one or two strokes over par means with 14 Holes left to play.

I have no empirical evidence, but I guarantee you that plenty of medal-inclined players have stood on the 3rd Tee at level par and left the 3rd three strokes over level fours.  But I also guarantee you that many players have stood on the 3rd Tee at level par and left the 3rd Green still level...and for them the hole was a legitimately good launch point for a confident round.  In that perspective, conquering "4" can be a round-rescuer, a round-enhancer too.  If you can get off the 3rd at level, you have a great chance to have the kind of medal day that satisfies.  There is a superb chance that you can average "4" over the next four holes and go to the 8th Tee still level. You're round is 44% complete, there's a whole 2nd half of a day on NGLA left and you've taken only 28 strokes. 

What you do with this acquisition is up to you and your golf temperament... (will you start thinking of what you're going to say to your friend on the phone tonight; will you start thinking ahead to the Cape hole and forget your business; will you concentrate and be emboldened to savor every shot and continue to a fine score?)... but it is one of the many possible transition points, all built from such routing as the 3rd is to its course. The great courses and the great holes do this... and NGLA is a great course with numerous great holes. You know every twist in the 18 chapters, you are always a central character in the novel, and the holes, the climate and your companions are characters that behave differently.  Entirely new stories can be written with the same general template.  They can be comedies and tragedies and flat documentaries, but they are always a page-turner and their general familiarity always disarms you from a plot twist, a spot of good fortune, a spot of bad fortune and observed fortune.
 
I have a brief follow-up to the premise that Pat puts in his question - which I may get to address later in the day.

Cheers

VK

 
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Patrick_Mucci

Re: If a golf course is intended to be an examination of
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2010, 08:13:56 PM »
VKmetz,

I agree, in match play, # 3 can be a match destroyer or spring board to victory, due partially to its position in the order of play.

I'd also agree that it's quirkiness is tolerated more because it's played early in the round rather than at the end, although, # 16 would seem to partially dispel that notion.

Your premise regarding the 3rd hole in match play, that it's not over until it's over, is so true.
I've seen so many matches where it seems like one golfer is firmly in control, or where the other golfer seems to be in a hopeless position, only to have those "reversals of fortune".   Those reversals can have a devastating effect or an inspiring effect on the golfer, and effect that can carry forward to the remainder of the match, and in some cases, determine the eventual outcome of the match, and that's due to the mental aspects of golf/matches, discipline and the ability to overcome adversity or bad breaks.

I also think that what happens on the 3rd hole, can dramatically affect what happens on the 4th hole, another hole where elements of quirkiness conspire to disrupt predetermined outcomes.

That double dip effect can send a golfer down into the doldrums or propel him up to cloud nine.   

V. Kmetz

Re: If a golf course is intended to be an examination of
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2010, 11:48:44 PM »
Pat (and all)

I'm pleased that you perceive the same tension between what a hole is and where it is in that golf experience, that I do.  The greater this tension and relaxation plays on you, across a round, the less the particular fairness or easiness of a hole matter...in fact, you come to relish and look forward to these experiences on both familiar and new courses...

That leads me to digress a little bit into my follow-up on a portion of PM's original question:  Is a golf course intended to be an examination of ...the golfer's playing skills...?"  I realize PM's question was begging us to accept this premise in highlighting something about NGLA #3, and was not looking to argue it.

Rather than do so i will say: Yes it is an examination, but it is more like the type of examination embodied in a crossword puzzle, than it is, an examination to receive a grade, degree or license; in that, this examination has no consequence and really doesn't involve an authoritative outside force conferring honors or penalties.  i'm sorry if that formality makes me sound like there's a cleek up my ass, but it is an important distinction, because I think Golf's ethereal beauty is that it is human recreation.

We have lost that concept in a technological, commercial age...recreation.  But think about it in literal terms before anything else...it implies one of its great roles, to "RE-CREATE". And when PM's post start to hint at those inner dialogs, you can see it going on via the instrument of one great hole on one great course.  For him (and for me, and I think you readers out there too) his is creating something different than the life he leads when he is confronted by such a dynamic.

Golf is such beautiful RE-CREATION in that it lets you summon an entire series of fictional dynamics within a fixed set of tangible references.  Again, sorry for the high-falutin.  What I mean is that no one really cares that you carried the pond on 18, leading to a closing birdie to win $21.75 from your friend except you.  You made up all its significance and import that day.  iI the chain of human events, it was a piece of dust flying through the air, but you assigned meaning to it and all its particulars. 

An acre of promontory nosing out off of a dune scape may have seemed like the Crimean peninsula to a British veteran, but it wasn't really Sevastopol; it was on the firthlands of Scotland.  Yet we cannot deny that now when we play, read or think about a "Redan" there isn't an implication of ancient martial glory, the air of defensive fortifications and battle imagery present in our imagination.  This is where "card and pencil" men miss their business because recreation is supposed to alleviate life pressures and stimulate refreshing new strategies; to take you out of your normal sphere and posit a challenge that doesn't matter if you fail.  It was only to distract you enough to forget your other realities, and give your mind a break from paying bills and mortality. You can imagine what i think when  see golfers are looking at PDF and Celllular devices.

Lastly (Thank God, right?) and going back to crossword puzzles for a moment, I see golf courses on a relative scale not unlike a weekly slate of NYT crossword puzzles.  As most know, the puzzles increase in difficulty from Mon-Sat.  A Monday puzzle can take a practiced puzzler a mere 20 minutes to complete and most of that writing in the answers.  For the same guy, the Saturday puzzle can sit around the house all weekend and remain only half-filled-in.  (I myself have completed only one (1) Saturday puzzle in about 150 tries over the years)  This doesn't mean that a Monday puzzle is not worth doing...there are good ones, bad ones, and average ones on mondays and every day of the week.  Not every person is a day-in, day-out puzzler either so this system works to invite a wide group in and see if they can't follow along.

I find this to be true in a general sense about courses and I rate them in this way.  When I think about a truly great course or hole, I think, "This is a tough, fair and exhilarating Thursday puzzle. It took me almost four hours, I forgot about everything else bothering me and life is still here regardless of how I achieved.  It wasn't tricked up or impenetrable."  I have played many Friday and Saturday courses and Tue, Wed courses made into a Friday or Saturday test through tees or set-up, but very few find the solvable pitch of a good Thursday test, within the limits of achievement of most puzzlers.

There's other clunky analogies between GCA and Crossword puzzles such as "you are on your own about cheating."  and "no one really cares when you solve that Saturday puzzle, except you." but the real message for this follow-up is that Golf is recreation, moreso than an examination.  That air of "test" and "challenge" has been overdone as an aesthetic in our Golf world (in our world-world too) and I think we are seeing a larger reactio nto that where people are once again asking, "Where are the short holes?"  "where are the reachable par 5s" etc.

Cheers

VK
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Jim Nugent

Re: If a golf course is intended to be an examination of
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2010, 01:30:56 AM »
An overall question about NGLA.  Since CBM died, have they made any key changes to the architecture?  Or do the layout and greens hold pretty true to how CBM left the course? 

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