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Scott Warren

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What really makes a hole "penal"?
« on: January 13, 2010, 01:54:11 PM »
I read this is the Tobacco Road thread and it got me thinking:

Penal architecture is just a type of architecture which leaves no or a very limited choice of shot selection.

That was really interesting to me, because for a while I have read posts calling certain holes penal when I really don't think they are.

It seems many people will call a hole penal if the drive and/or the green have hazards on both sides, irrespective of whether the landforms on the ground create an option off the tee or a preferred angle into the green.

What does everyone think?

Does the true concept of "a penal hole" get misrepresented through an oversimplification of penal, strategic and heroic and a desire to label holes with one of the three, when most holes possess a combination of at least two?

Does the lateral aspect of shot choice get focused on too greatly in the apparaisal of a hole's strategy?

Bill_McBride

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Re: What really makes a hole "penal"?
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2010, 02:09:09 PM »
To me, truly "penal" means no options and death if you fail.  A forced carry with no way to play around the danger.  #18 at Tobacco Road is a good example, do or die.  #17 at TPC Sawgrass is another.  Hit the green or drown, nothing strategic.

"Heroic" and "strategic" can overlap.  Imagine a second fairway that adds 30 yards to Tobacco Road's 18th hole.  Now you can strategically play around the trouble, or you can heroically try to carry the canyon onto the shorter fairway.

Michael Whitaker

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Re: What really makes a hole "penal"?
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2010, 02:57:40 PM »
I agree, Bill. To me "Penal" means you are severely punished for not achieving the goal at hand... you have to play backwards, you have to take a drop, you lose your ball, etc.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Jason Topp

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Re: What really makes a hole "penal"?
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2010, 03:58:46 PM »
Categorizing a hole as penal, heroic or strategic is a fuzzy, but in my view, worthwhile exersize.

I define the categories as follows:

1.  Penal - you hit a proscribed shot or are punished.  
2.  Strategic - it is possible to play around hazards but placing the ball near the hazard is rewarded with an advantage for the next shot.
3.  Heroic - you must clear a hazard but there is an easy way to do so and a more difficult way to do so and. generally a variety of options in between.  

The type of hazard is irrelecant to the classification of the hole.  Hazards can be slopes, rough, rocks, blind shots or anything else that impedes one's ability to hit the next shot.

Applying these concepts in the real world makes classification a bit difficult.  For example, the island green par three is the prototypical example of a penal golf hole.  Nonetheless there are options on such a hole - e.g. do you go for the pin or hit to the middle of the green.  

On the other end of the spectrum, very strategic holes - such as almost every hole at Sand Hills is penal in the sense that long grass surrounds the exterior of the hole and requires some sort of forced carry to get to the fairway.  Thus, even these strategic holes are "penal" in the sense that the player is required to hit it in the wide space between the long grass or that player will be punished.

A prototypical example of a heroic hole is a tee shot over the corner of a lake (often but not by definition on cape holes) such as the tee shot on 18 at Cherry Hills.  An agressive line yields a shorter approach and a better angle.  However, if one takes a very conservative line off the tee the carry is no more than the carry to get to the fairway at Sand Hills.  (This is surmise on my part - I have never played there).  In that sense the distinction between a heroic and strategic hole is very minimal.

Thus, these classifications are really classifications of degree.  Nonetheless, I find them useful in thinking about a golf hole.  Unless there is something really special about the hole (15 at Cypress Point) the more strategic a hole can be made the more interesting the hole becomes.

11-12-13 (at least before the recent addition of trees) at Augusta have been labelled as very good examples of a strategic (11) penal (12) and heroic (13) holes.  I'm not familar enough with 11 to describe why it is (or was) strategic but the sequence demonstrates that all types of holes have their places on a great golf course.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2010, 04:00:19 PM by Jason Topp »

Rob Rigg

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Re: What really makes a hole "penal"?
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2010, 04:34:08 PM »
You think - "Oh $*^&, I'm totally f'ed" while standing on the tee.

Heroic - you think - "I can totally pull this off" and then fail to do some most of the time

Strategic - you think - "I could hit driver and mess with that, or hit three wood and if I hit it over there it'll be perfect, and then if I miss it will probably go there and I'll be okay"

That is why I dislike penal courses - your choice is pretty much made for you and they tend to play on the "boring" side from a creativity stand point, at least IMO. A penal hole or two on a course can be okay if they fit in but 18 of them is a screaming short sale.

Kalen Braley

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Re: What really makes a hole "penal"?
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2010, 05:02:51 PM »
Something like this with no place to miss.

This is a par 3 that plays more than 200 yards over a marsh to a small target....just nowhere else to hit it except on.


Andrew Summerell

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Re: What really makes a hole "penal"?
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2010, 05:16:17 PM »
Penal (like Strategic & Heroic) are just terms that inhibit architectural discussion. Every hole in the entire world is different, yet we categorise them into 3 terms. We need to get beyond such clichés to the real ‘meat & potatoes’ of architecture.

Kevin Lynch

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Re: What really makes a hole "penal"?
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2010, 06:10:09 PM »
To me, truly "penal" means no options and death if you fail.  A forced carry with no way to play around the danger.  #18 at Tobacco Road is a good example, do or die.  #17 at TPC Sawgrass is another.  Hit the green or drown, nothing strategic.

"Heroic" and "strategic" can overlap.  Imagine a second fairway that adds 30 yards to Tobacco Road's 18th hole.  Now you can strategically play around the trouble, or you can heroically try to carry the canyon onto the shorter fairway.

I think Andrew & Scott are right in that it is almost impossible to try and label holes one way or another.  Besides having combined elements of each "philosophy," you have an infinite level of degrees within each school – which is what I think Jason was illustrating in his Sand Hills example.

Using 18 at Tobacco as another example, the tee shot is penal in that you are forced to pull of a minimum carry without a really safe option.  But, on the spectrum of "penal," this is not an overly difficult challenge to overcome.  From the Tips, this carry is 195 yards, and decreases quickly as you move up the tee decks.  If it is a penal shot, I’d call it Penal in the 9th degree, especially considering the very wide fairway.  I’d call TPC’s 17th Penal in the 3rd degree, since it’s a short iron (whereas a 190+ island green would be Penal 1st).

On you get over the lower intensity Penal element on Tobacco’s 18 Tee Shot, then the Strategic elements kick in.  Depending how much you want to flirt with the trees on the right, you can reduce the impact of the obscured green and swales short/left of the green.

Thus Scott is right, to a point.  Sometimes trying to label holes inhibits discussion.  But I think those three “labels” are helpful in understanding and analyzing a hole.  However, rather than viewing the schools in a “Box A/B/C” approach, it helps to view them as different continuums that can ce-exist in various degrees to create an infinite combination of holes.

Sean_A

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Re: What really makes a hole "penal"?
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2010, 06:13:44 PM »
I read this is the Tobacco Road thread and it got me thinking:

Penal architecture is just a type of architecture which leaves no or a very limited choice of shot selection.

That was really interesting to me, because for a while I have read posts calling certain holes penal when I really don't think they are.

It seems many people will call a hole penal if the drive and/or the green have hazards on both sides, irrespective of whether the landforms on the ground create an option off the tee or a preferred angle into the green.

What does everyone think?

Does the true concept of "a penal hole" get misrepresented through an oversimplification of penal, strategic and heroic and a desire to label holes with one of the three, when most holes possess a combination of at least two?

Does the lateral aspect of shot choice get focused on too greatly in the apparaisal of a hole's strategy?

Scott

Either bowling alley golf or carry golf is penal imo because one's options are severely limited - the penalty for failure is direct and immediate.  While I don't want a load of this sort of golf it does have its place and is a valuable tool especially when we want to really test accuracy and length - which should be part of any good course.  These are the shots which make golfers sweat and that is a good thing for a hole or so.  

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Melvyn Morrow

Re: What really makes a hole "penal"?
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2010, 06:15:23 PM »

Scott

What really makes a hole "penal" today is a Desigher with courage and balls.

Melvyn

Pete_Pittock

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Re: What really makes a hole "penal"?
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2010, 06:31:38 PM »
Also, the terms heroic, penal and strategic take on different characteristcs depending on the ability of the performer vs the observer.

Kevin Lynch

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Re: What really makes a hole "penal"?
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2010, 06:50:22 PM »
I agree, Bill. To me "Penal" means you are severely punished for not achieving the goal at hand... you have to play backwards, you have to take a drop, you lose your ball, etc.

Michael - thanks for posting that comment.  To me, I think it crystallizes the crux of any discussion about "penal" architecture.

When I think about penal architecture, I break it down into two general schools.  There's the "take your ball away / penalty stroke" school vs. the "erode your score / half-stroke penalty" school.

Your comment seems to be referring to the former, rather than the latter. 

A few years ago, I played two decidedly “penal” courses on back-to-back days.  On Thursday, I played Oakmont (Slope 144) and then traveled to the Reserve at Thunderhill (Slope 148).  However, the designs couldn’t have been more different.

At Oakmont, missing a shot will generally force you to hit a lofted iron to either escape from the rough or navigate a high-lipped fairway bunker.  Your most important scrambling tool likely will be your 50-80 yard wedge shot from the forced lay-ups, followed very closely by the putter.  However, it’s rare to accumulate a penalty stroke.

In contrast, the Reserve is a former fish hatchery and has 73 ponds all around.  There is no recovery from water and missing many fairways requires you to layup much farther back than at Oakmont.

In essence, the difference between these two difficult courses is like the difference between a strong undercurrent and a crashing wave.  While both will kill you, they appear quite different at a glance. 

Oakmont provides a serene setting, with open expanses and no water or OB to steal your ball away.  But underneath the surface, the combination of rough, deep faced bunkers, and the hardest, fastest greens in the world will wear you down to the point that your score is swept away with half-strokes added everywhere.

At the Reserve, you see everything coming at you.  The holes are tree-lined and water-lined, with bunkers filling in the other areas.  Thunderhill just beats you over the head, preferring to add to your score in chunks with penalty strokes.  You may score 90 at both courses, but you’ll take 90 swings at Oakmont, but may only swing the club 82 times at Thunderhill, and add your penalties.

***********

Ultimately, I think when people criticize “penal” design, they’re referring to courses like the Reserve.  I don’t like penal courses that give you ZERO chance for recovery (i.e. a lost ball or penalty stroke).  It’s the reason I abhor courses that fall in love with water – there’s just no room for imagination.

At Oakmont, you’ll generally be punished for missing the proscribed shot, but it’s not a given.  You can still grind out a par with some creative scrambling.  There’s just a greater range of penalties that can be levied without water, resulting in a much more interesting design.

In the end, would you rather watch a pro take a drop from the edge of a pond or see if they can create some magic from the trees (e.g. Sergio at Medinah / Tiger at the Buick)?


ChipOat

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Re: What really makes a hole "penal"?
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2010, 07:36:26 PM »
I'll try this:

- No place to bail out and play the hole for bogey (eliminates #16 at Cypress);
- ANY bad shot (other than a whiff) WILL make a bad matter worse (#17 at TPC has been mentioned and I would include #8 and #10 at Pine Valley - be good or be dead).
- Any place other than the fairway or the green is very bad news.  This means that a strategic course can be made penal simply by growing the rough to ridiculously difficult length.  Think almost any U.S. Open course.

I submit that some holes can be strategic until the approach - which is, then, penal.

For example, you can play #15 at Pine Valley pretty safely until it's time to hit it on the green.  Whether the approach to that green is your third shot or your fifth shot, it NEEDS to be successful.  I would say that #2 at Pine Valley is similar.  You can bunt the ball straight ahead twice but, your approach to that green is either a good one, or your problems are, immediately, magnified.

cary lichtenstein

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Re: What really makes a hole "penal"?
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2010, 07:40:44 PM »
The 5th hole, the par 3 at Pine Valley

17th at TPC Sawgrass

11 at Ritz in Jupiter
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Jason Topp

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Re: What really makes a hole "penal"?
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2010, 11:37:37 PM »
Penal (like Strategic & Heroic) are just terms that inhibit architectural discussion. Every hole in the entire world is different, yet we categorise them into 3 terms. We need to get beyond such clichés to the real ‘meat & potatoes’ of architecture.

I cannot think of single example where these labels inhibit discussion.  I cannot recall the conversation ever stopping based on the label.

Jason Topp

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Re: What really makes a hole "penal"?
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2010, 11:39:06 PM »
I agree, Bill. To me "Penal" means you are severely punished for not achieving the goal at hand... you have to play backwards, you have to take a drop, you lose your ball, etc.

I disagree with these descriptions.  A hole can be penal without any hazards that do this, e.g. a hole through a tunnel of trees with playable lies underneath.

Mark_F

Re: What really makes a hole "penal"?
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2010, 01:35:41 AM »
Penal architecture is just a type of architecture which leaves no or a very limited choice of shot selection.

What does everyone think?

Penal is when the options presented aren't tempting. You are dictated to, instead of lured.  So the above quote is true.

Does the lateral aspect of shot choice get focused on too greatly in the apparaisal of a hole's strategy?

Definitely.  That is a fairly one-dimensional view.  Quite common to many members of the Melbourne Sandbelt Mafia, but incorrect.

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: What really makes a hole "penal"?
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2010, 05:31:53 AM »
I agree, Bill. To me "Penal" means you are severely punished for not achieving the goal at hand... you have to play backwards, you have to take a drop, you lose your ball, etc.

I disagree with this description... I see many have agreed...

From a design perspective, the severity of the punishment has little to do with whether the hole is a 'penal' hole.... You are referring to 'penal' hazards which is an entirely different concept...

Sean_A

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Re: What really makes a hole "penal"?
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2010, 05:48:20 AM »
I agree, Bill. To me "Penal" means you are severely punished for not achieving the goal at hand... you have to play backwards, you have to take a drop, you lose your ball, etc.

I disagree with this description... I see many have agreed...

From a design perspective, the severity of the punishment has little to do with whether the hole is a 'penal' hole.... You are referring to 'penal' hazards which is an entirely different concept...

Ally

I am with you.  Penal architecture is about limited choices rather than the severity of the penalty.  That said, the ultimate in penal architecture is the combo of limited choices and severe penalties.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Andrew Thomson

Re: What really makes a hole "penal"?
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2010, 05:50:02 AM »
A strategic hole can have penal features.

What really makes a hole penal is the lack of options other than the most dagnerous one.

A 'strategic' hole can have a penal option that obviously penalises you if you don't succeed, but offers you a simple bailout.  However the problem with this simplistic view of 'strategic' versus 'penal' is that you are then penalised by for taking the easy option by the difficulty of your next shot!  This is obviously the most simplistic way to describe strategy, but it thus renders all holes penal depending on the options you take  ;D

I prefer holes where the strategy is different, depending on the golfer, just as the penalty is also different!

Tom MacWood

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Re: What really makes a hole "penal"?
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2010, 06:36:25 AM »
The problem with the term penal is that it was originally used (and devised by) by 'strategic' golf architects to paint a group of competing architects in a negative light. Penal = non thinking. If you referred to someone as advocating or practicing penal architecture that was the equivalent of calling them an idiot. As far as I can tell there really is no purely penal or strategic golf holes, golf courses or golf architecture...they are all blends that may lean one direction or the other.

Anthony Gray

Re: What really makes a hole "penal"?
« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2010, 11:13:45 AM »


  bump


Mac Plumart

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Re: What really makes a hole "penal"?
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2010, 11:17:15 AM »
Funny you should bump this...

I cut and pasted this quote to my word files yesterday from Geoff Shackelford's site, perhaps this captures it...

"On a penal course we see what to avoid. A good shot is the mere evasion of evil. But on a strategic course we must study what to conquer. " MAX BEHR

Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: What really makes a hole "penal"?
« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2010, 11:50:16 AM »

Mac

I refer you to my post on Lorne Smith's Fine Golf site on the subject of penal  http://www.finegolf.co.uk/news/2010/01/25/what-is-penal-design/.

Penal has become a dirty word because our golf is not up the challenge of facing challenges. We have become weak and only seem interested in hitting a long ball minimising hazards and getting a low a score as possible - and if the equipment or course gives a little help here or there then that’s fine. Others call it cheating and being just bloody lazy with very little interest in the game its challenges, its just win at any cost. That in my humble opinion is called war but when I play golf I play a game called golf.

Penal is good and should be well mixed with strategic, it should not always be seen but have allowances to escape hence my dislike for the island Greens surrounded by water.

Melvyn



   

Mac Plumart

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Re: What really makes a hole "penal"?
« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2010, 02:13:24 PM »
Melvyn...I can not tell you how much I enjoy hearing your opinions.  Golf is a thinking game really jumped out at me in the link you provided. 

Along the lines of this thread, I think I truly get what "penal" arhcitecture is and what strategic is and I agree that a blend of the two needs to be employed.

I know that having a discussion on a topic like this on the internet is difficult because the give and take/back and forth in a normal conversation is non-existent, but I think the following can clearly highlight "penal" architecture...

500 yard par 5 hole with a pond that lies just in front of the tee box that spans from that tee box to out about 50 yards.  So, what purpose does that pond serve?  Well, if you duff you tee shot rather laying one and striking two 480 yards from the hole, you are re-teeing and striking 3.  Frankly, the first instance should be penalty enough...but the "penal" school crushes the poorly played shots and adds even more penalty to them.

Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

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