[Norbert P]

 
    "Holes that take you away from the ocean . . ."

   I am fond of #5 at Pacific Dunes and the dune ridge walk from Reg's Hut to #5 via the forward tee path at Barnbougle Dunes. Probably the best walk between golf holes anywhere in the freaking Universe.

[Tom_Doak]

Let's take up a collection to send Patrick Mucci to Castle Stuart so Mark Parsinen can explain all his thoughts about views and golf experience to Pat.  [Hmmm ... Mark talks endlessly about his "infinity greens" and Pat writes infinitely in green ... this cannot be a coincidence. ]

Either Patrick will see the light and stop trying to insist that the surroundings don't matter, or he and Mark will have a duel with pistols.

[Michael Dugger]

Hmm, curious, I recall Pat once claiming the site for Sandpines in Florence OR was blemished by a water tower...

[Tony_Muldoon]

I can't believe no ones mentioned North Berwick yet, myself included, but I think you've missed the best of the bunch  After your blind approach to 14, its over the rise with the green down by the sea, what a setting!
Cheers,

James

James

Tony has missed out some back nine holes which are very seaside. 

James I recall that green being protected by the sea by a small Dune obscuring it from water?


Sean Which holes? You do play parrallel to the sea on the way in but they're not like the holes at Crail or the first 3 at NB where the sea is a hazard. Only at the end of the routing do you really get the majestic views agian. I could be wrong (people tell me it's happened but like Pat I have trouble believing it) but it's the beginning and the end where the sea is in full view.

[Norbert P]

Hmm, curious, I recall Pat once claiming the site for Sandpines in Florence OR was blemished by a water tower...

   He's wrong. It's blemished by a golf course.

[Patrick_Mucci]

You're focused on the experience and I'm focused on the architecture and how it impacts play.

It would be a shame not to enjoy the experience of the architecture.

That's my point, If it's bad architecture, how are you going to enjoy it ?

Great looking Cart Girls in provocative outfits, all the beer and food a man could need, fountains, waterfalls, and all the glitz needed to maximize the EXPERIENCE.

You don't really believe that's all EXPERIENCE is on a golf course, do you? It would be sad if you do.

That's the message I'm getting from those focused on the"experience", evidently, they see everything but the architecture.

The quality of the music, not the surroundings determines how much I enjoy the concert.

That last quote is just plain wrong.
No ti's not, it's on the money

That's why orchestras prefer to perform in concert halls with good acoustics instead of some 3rd rate school hall.
Composers have even been known to compose for it & conductors arrange to utilise the good acoustics of a concert hall.

Please go back and reread what I typed, evidently, you didn't understand it.
I said that it was the "QUALITY" of the music, not the surroundings.  QUALITY of the music.  If I can't hear it, or it's not clear, then, the quality is lacking.   The seats and wallpaper and concessions are meaningless, as is the chandellier

Most of us on here are interested in the architecture, but 95% of the golfing world doesn’t care as much.

I don't believe that.
How does Pebble Beach get $ 500 a round while Sandpiper and Bodega, with better veiws, can't command anywhere near those amounts

If they are playing a relatively poor hole with a beautiful view, they won’t mind.

I disagree with that as well

[Patrick_Mucci]

Hmm, curious, I recall Pat once claiming the site for Sandpines in Florence OR was blemished by a water tower...

I think your recall is faulty as is the context of the water tower discussion.

[Patrick_Mucci]

There have been a few similar threads about this and I conclude that Patrick is the only person who can completely divorce the surroundings from the architecture.  For normal humans it just can't be done .

Tony,

I think others have the ability to differentiate between the two.

When I'm playing a golf course, I'm not surfing in the nearby ocean, nor am I hiking/skiing on the nearby mountains, my interaction in playing golf is soley with my immediate environment, the golf course and its individual and collective archtictural features.

A bad hole can't be made good by views beyond the golf course, nor can a good hole be made bad by the views beyond the golf course.

Having the ability to evaluate the architectural and playing merits of a golf course has NOTHING to do with what lies outside of the property lines.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Let's take up a collection to send Patrick Mucci to Castle Stuart so Mark Parsinen can explain all his thoughts about views and golf experience to Pat.  [Hmmm ... Mark talks endlessly about his "infinity greens" and Pat writes infinitely in green ... this cannot be a coincidence. ]

Either Patrick will see the light and stop trying to insist that the surroundings don't matter, or he and Mark will have a duel with pistols.

Tom Doak,

Are you saying that Pacific Dunes owes a good deal of its architectural quality to its proximity to the Pacific Ocean and that if it was located elsewhere it wouldn't be as well thought of as a quality golf course ?

That one of my favorite stretches of holes, #'s 11, 12 and 13 would be lacking in their inherent architectural values ?

[JC Jones]

Hmm, curious, I recall Pat once claiming the site for Sandpines in Florence OR was blemished by a water tower...

I think your recall is faulty as is the context of the water tower discussion.

It will be like when he claimed there were no courses in Florida built on swamps and then said that just off the fairway at the Medalist is swamp. 

[Bart Bradley]

Having the ability to evaluate the architectural and playing merits of a golf course has NOTHING to do with what lies outside of the property lines.[/b][/size][/color]

Patrick:

So scale, proportion and potential deception (created by backdrop and landforms in the distance) mean nothing to you...


Bart

[Anthony Gray]

17 at Bandon Dunes is a great hole that takes you away from the ocean. In fact, it may be the "best" hole on the course.

Alex - I have pumped 17 several times on here.  I think it is a great hole.  

I love that after the drama of 16, you do in fact turn 90 degrees away from the ocean.  Late in the day, you see the clubhouse, and know that with some good work you can finish your round 4-4 and soon have beer in your hand.  

  I would have to agree. 17 is a great hole. The bold approach takes the mis hit short shot and turns it into death. The cop out shot to the left makes for a tricky up and down. Very well designed hole. The green does allow for the long ball that takes the death out of play. Has a little Pebble Beach No. 8 feel to the secound shot.

  Anthony

[Patrick_Mucci]

Hmm, curious, I recall Pat once claiming the site for Sandpines in Florence OR was blemished by a water tower...

 of the water tower discussion.

It will be like when he claimed there were no courses in Florida built on swamps and then said that just off the fairway at the Medalist is swamp. 

There's nothing contradictory about that statement.

Your statement only shows what little you know about Florida courses

The Medalist is NOT built on a swamp.

The Medalist is BUILT on SUGARSAND.

There's a swamp that's not far removed from a few of the holes, but, the course is built on SugarSand

With your logic, I guess you'll insist that Pebble Beach, Spyglass Hill, Cypress, Bandon Dunes and Pacific Dunes were all built ON the Pacific OCEAN and not adjacent to it.

As Bill McBride advised you, it would be better for you to quit when you're behind

[Patrick_Mucci]

Having the ability to evaluate the architectural and playing merits of a golf course has NOTHING to do with what lies outside of the property lines.[/b][/size][/color]

Patrick:

So scale, proportion and potential deception (created by backdrop and landforms in the distance) mean nothing to you...

Scale, proportion and potential deception outside of the property line have no effect on my play, nor do they have any effect on my evaluation of the architectural features and golf hole.

Could you identify some holes where Scale, proportion and potential deception, attributed to objects beyond the property line, influence the play of the hole and contribute to the architectural merits of the hole ?.

Thanks
[/quote]

[Bart Bradley]

Patrick:

What about the Devil's cauldron...with the green set up against the mountain, I felt that it made the drop shot much more difficult to judge.  I felt that my normal sense of scale was affected by the  the background and made club selection more difficult than a similar drop shot would be without the background mountain.  When a large mountain is in the background, I often have trouble determining distances to greens, bunkers, etc...because of scale.

This is but one example.  Another example is at my home club grandfather...the 15th hole plays downhill from the fairway.  I guarantee that when standing in the fairway, you would have a difficult time appreciating the downhill nature of the approach and would likely overclub (visitor after visitor suffers this fate).  This deception occurs because of the mountain shapes around the hole creating loss of proper perspective. 

I think that these deceptions of perspective and scale are interesting architectural features of these holes and would affect your play...unless you are playing with GPS that gives the exact distance, rise/drop, etc...

I respect your opinion and if, when considering these examples, you deem them non-architectural features or if you still believe they don't affect play then we will just disagree.

Bart

[Mike Wagner]

I love #7 at Bandon as well as #17.  Some very interesting pin positions.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bart,

I can't comment on holes or courses I've never seen or played.

But, let me ask you and everyone else a question.

Have you ever played to a skyline green ?

Was or wasn't it a great golfing experience ?

Was or wasn't it a great golf hole ?

Would it be a better hole with scenic backround ?

[Andrew Summerell]

Have you ever played to a skyline green ?

Yes, many.

Was or wasn't it a great golfing experience ?

Most are a great golfing experience

Was or wasn't it a great golf hole ?

Most are good holes

Would it be a better hole with scenic backround ?

So Patrick, now you are suggesting the scenic backdrop does make a difference. Make up your mind please!

[Bart Bradley]

Sorry, Patrick, you need to get to Banff...

Yes, a skyline green can make for a great hole...and on such a hole, a background would detract.  However, variety is the spice of life and perhaps, some other greens where the backgrounds added to the difficulty in club selection (similar to how a skyline green adds to perceptual challenges) might be effective architectural holes, made better by the backdrop.

Well that's my opinion anyway.

Bart

[Andrew Summerell]

Regarding Skyline holes:

I'm stating that the presence of the Sky is a function of the site selection not the choice of the architect.
And, that the architect has no influence over the Sky, and it's locatiion and its proximity to the site.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Have you ever played to a skyline green ?

Yes, many.

Was or wasn't it a great golfing experience ?

Most are a great golfing experience

Was or wasn't it a great golf hole ?

Most are good holes

Would it be a better hole with scenic backround ?

So Patrick, now you are suggesting the scenic backdrop does make a difference. Make up your mind please!

Andrew, I'm NOT suggesting that.
Please bone up on your reading comprehension skills

[Sean_A]

Bart,

I can't comment on holes or courses I've never seen or played.

But, let me ask you and everyone else a question.

Have you ever played to a skyline green ?

Was or wasn't it a great golfing experience ?

Was or wasn't it a great golf hole ?

Would it be a better hole with scenic backround ?

Pat

The skyline green of course has a background which on the right day can be as beautiful as anything.  Stick a weedy little tree behind the green and it loses some of its luster, but little or none of its playing quality.  That is if you believe the tree doesn't help with gauging distance - which sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't. Regardless, I want the tree out because of the aesthetics first and secondly because of most playing considerations.

Ciao 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sean,

I like skyline greens because of the threat they pose, the threat of the unknown, PLUS, since most, if not all skyline greens, sit up high, they're usually buffeted by the wind, another of my favorite elements.

As to the tree you allude to, right behind the green, that tree is on the golf course, not 100, 1000 or 10,000 yards removed from the property line.

[Scott Warren]

Just read this in the NGLA thread from Tom Doak:

I would not pick them as the best holes at National, but my favorite holes there are the 16th and 17th.  The landing area for the tee shot on 16, the grandeur of the punchbowl, and the great windmill are all features that no other course can duplicate; and the 17th is just the prettiest background for a golf hole I've ever seen.

I think that finally puts to bed the suggestion that the only people who consider and value the peripheral aspects of a round of golf are those who can't appreciate or don't care about the architecture.

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