Back tees at Major venues

[Adrian_Stiff]

That old 6th wasnt a wet hole is was on quite high ground, after you played the 5th you walked off at about 2 O'clock through some gorse and came out on the tee, the drive was a bit downhill, but the first 100 yards were flatter so im not sure/ cant remeber if you could see the ball land, that path that crosses 13 came across and there were some gulleys, the green as you say is still there. That old 6th must use quite a lot of the now 13th fairway. The old 6th was about 430, stroke 1 I think. I dont remember the 7th green in a different postion. There were tees to the right of the 11th green, the 12th hole normally a 480 yard par 5 was a short par 4 every Sunday, that green is probably still there, the old par 5 green is probably unrecognisable as it was very flat and just a circle, with a track infront.

[Sean_A]

That old 6th wasnt a wet hole is was on quite high ground, after you played the 5th you walked off at about 2 O'clock through some gorse and came out on the tee, the drive was a bit downhill, but the first 100 yards were flatter so im not sure/ cant remeber if you could see the ball land, that path that crosses 13 came across and there were some gulleys, the green as you say is still there. That old 6th must use quite a lot of the now 13th fairway. The old 6th was about 430, stroke 1 I think. I dont remember the 7th green in a different postion. There were tees to the right of the 11th green, the 12th hole normally a 480 yard par 5 was a short par 4 every Sunday, that green is probably still there, the old par 5 green is probably unrecognisable as it was very flat and just a circle, with a track infront.

Adrian

Yes, the old 6th played down much of the current 13th, but in a reverse direction with its green set in a low area to the right of the right of the forward tees for #13.  The old 13th disappeared with the same changes which created the current 6th and 12-14. 

I also found a green to the right of the 4th green in a big hollow.  I think it was a green from the 1897 design which took the course out near the church.  I suspect this green disappeared when Colt's plan for the current 4th was completed.  Some semblance of that corridor is now used for the 6th hole of the Channel Course - which incidentally is the tee which also has the 5th tee for Championship Course.   

There are loads of original or near original greens that I have identified just to try and make sense of the Burnham's crazy evolution.  Of course, a few are still in use.  #s 15 & 18 are original 1891 greens and I strongly suspect #3 is from the first 1897 course.  Of course you will remember when the 14th green was approached from further left where the houses now are.     

Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

Yes I remember the old 14th, it was 175 yards and played quite uphill to a squaredish plateau. I remember it was a 3 iron. I think the green was on the exact site of 14 now but was completey redone. I am suprised there are not more pictures of the course. I played 72 holes on it over a weekend I reckon September 1975. As I remember the now 6th was built first.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

didn't there used to be a hole which played differently on Sundays because of its proximity to the church..on the back nine if I remeber correctly?

[Adrian_Stiff]

didn't there used to be a hole which played differently on Sundays because of its proximity to the church..on the back nine if I remeber correctly?

Yes Michael, the old Sunday 12th. I am pretty sure the old green is still there.

[JohnV]

I played all the way back at Indian Creek the other day because my host thought I should see "the whole course".  But it's only 6900 yards, and that was really too much for me.

I've mentioned it before but when I was in Scotland in 1982, Carnoustie had a set-up where they rotated their tee markers to play six holes from the Open Championship tees, six from the normal tees, and six from the way-up tees every day.  This was probably a bit too much for most people, but I wish more clubs would put a couple of tees back and a couple forward each day.  It might help more people to understand just how much harder the back tees are, and how the distance gap has become exaggerated by modern equipment.

Tom Doak,

I think the difficulty with this process is course ratings and handicaps

As long as the tee markers balance out to the slope and rating for that particular set, it's fine, but, can you imaging the confusion in doing this with three or four sets of markers ?

Assuming the course has been rated from all the sets of tees, there is no reason that combined ratings can be generated very easily.  I assume they have three distinct sets as opposed to just picking 6-6-6 differently on a daily basis.

When I played Carnoustie many years ago, they had three sets of tees and rotated to a different set each day.  You got what you got each day.  From the front tees, par was 70 and from the back it was 72.

[Niall C]

Adrian,
I see your point really I do...but how many peopel would actually play from those tees anyway.
Royal Birkdale for instance...the walk to the back tees would put most players off

Plus the limited amount of gueast play would automatically limit its usage.

The Old course is a differnt prospect though..all that play would certainly damamge the tees...do you not think the Old School adage is somewhat approriate?

Michael - I think for Open champ venues probably quite a lot woud want to play if it was on offer. Reality is than few golfers worse than hcp 3 could enjoy the relentless carries over rough that some of these tees 50 yards or more further back. I have known pro's not be abe to make the fairways when it puffs. Probably if you had 4 great golfers (they dont take divots) and they used the normal medal tees at the short holes it would be okay, but one problem you have trying to run a course is the golfers dont always follow the rules. Some of these links courses have difficulities filling in fairway divots in April and its okay by July if the weather gets sour.

Adrian

Spot on. When I was a member down at Silloth, they had 4 members comps a year from the very back tees and 3 of those were stableford. Even then these comps weren't fully subscribed unlike the normal medals. Members don't want to get beaten up whereas visitors to a championship course want to see what the fuss is about even if they aren't up to the task.

Niall

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

How about being a little more friendly to the better players and allowing those with very low handicaps the privelage of playing the entire course.
When I go to an Open venue, I dont want to play it at 6400 yards or so..one of the selling features of this game is the "fact you can play on the smae venues as the worlds best"...well apparently not in the UK


As you gentlemen can see this is a deep rooted dark cloud in my history..too many summons' from club secretaries growing up as my desire to play all of the course was reprimanded...
With handicap proof you could certainly limit the number...heck make it scratch or better only...

just ignore me and will go back under my little rock!
and back to following the Manchester derby on the beeb...go United!

[Kevin_Reilly]

Played Olympic Lake last week and they weren't using many of the Open tees from the tips. The course is plenty long in that heavy cool air without having to deal with 500 yard par fours. I have no idea how anybody could par 16 as a four under Open conditions.

I'm guessing you meant to say #17 as a par 4.   Note that a college player named John Hurley reached #17 with an 8 iron for his second shot in US Amateur play in 2007.  I saw it with my own eyes, otherwise I wouldn't believe it.  He was pin high in two shots on #16.

I think #17 will play as a par 5 in the 2012 Open.

[James Boon]

Leave Burnham alone will you!   

Adrian,

I too once thought of 7 as a weak hole, but Sean showed me the light and I now see it as a real clever piece of design. Very subtle. I can see how your idea for the 3rd green would be a good one, but I certainly wouldn't want to lose the existing green, just put the tee back on the lower 17th as Sean says.

Sean,

I tend to agree with your hole by hole list as far as potential and what should / could be done is concerned. I didn't realise there was a new tee back on 16 as well so I'll look out for that next time. I wouldn't mind playing off the very back tees to give it a go some time, but I wouldn't be in a rush to play the new back tee on 5!

Back to the original topic, I think I've mentioned these both before but here goes again.

I played as a guest at Hollinwell last year and as our groups handicaps were 4, 5 and 7 we played from the very back tees. The policy they have is that if you are good enough you are welcome to play from them, but if you start struggling you will soon be asked to play from the forward tees. As our host said, he plays from the back tees most of the time, so the course feels easier when he plays in the monthly Medal... My main observation from the back tees was that as I'm a short hitter, most of the time I couldn't even reach any fairway bunkers, so I could be a little wayward of the tee and still keep a decent score going.

So its not all courses here in the UK that stop you playing off the back tees.

I played Hoylake off the forward tees and it was a real dissappointment. This was only a couple of months after The Open and so it was playing firm and fast, but to be able to smash drivers over bunkers that Tiger was laying up from with irons meant it was a totally different course. We did sneak out again for a quick loop of 7 holes and we played off the back tees (though I'm sure we weren't supposed to, no one was looking, so you didn't hear it from me) and I actually enjoyed the challenge more, as it was closer to my expectation of an Open course and I actually scored much better?

Cheers,

James

[Mark Chaplin]

Speed of play is a factor when using back tees, at many of the traditional old clubs the tees were pretty close to the greens resulting in short walks and quicker play. Obviously building a tee 50 yards back makes a 100 yard round trip to the tee, do that 10 times in a round and there is 1000 yards of extra walking.

That takes time and if the group behind is playing off the normal tees they will be held up, therefore the secretary gets complaints re slow visitors and the committee bans visitors from back tees.

My big objection is playing off massively forward tees, Sunningdale is the worst culprit in this case charging the thick end of £300 for a full day then playing you around 6000yds on both courses.     

[Sean_A]

Leave Burnham alone will you!   

Adrian,

I too once thought of 7 as a weak hole, but Sean showed me the light and I now see it as a real clever piece of design. Very subtle. I can see how your idea for the 3rd green would be a good one, but I certainly wouldn't want to lose the existing green, just put the tee back on the lower 17th as Sean says.

Sean,

I tend to agree with your hole by hole list as far as potential and what should / could be done is concerned. I didn't realise there was a new tee back on 16 as well so I'll look out for that next time. I wouldn't mind playing off the very back tees to give it a go some time, but I wouldn't be in a rush to play the new back tee on 5!


Cheers,

James

James

Yes, all the wonderful changes for a few comps a year sound grand until the members are asked to stump up for bill.  In truth, the only changes I would like to see other than the lower 17th tee also use for the #3 champ tee are

1. New #12 tee behind #11 green on top of the dune making this a par 4 or par 3.  It was topped - they need to finish the job.
2. New forward tee benched into the dune facing the 3rd tee on #16 making the hole drivable for more golfers.
3. #s16 & 3 fairways combined as one huge fairway. 

These changes actually shorten the course for the daily markers and are worth the money to do. 

Ciao.                                                                                                   

[James Boon]

Sean,

Sounds good to me, though I'm not sure about a forward tee on 12? However, I'd be willing to give it a go, as its an interesting green to approach from any distance with a variety of clubs, so could be good. I suspect after the money that has been spent on the new reservoir, it will be a while before any further significant works could be done.

Cheers,

James

[Michael Taylor]

I'm a member of New South Wales GC and while it may not be a major venue, it still has hosted our major tournament, the Australian Open..

We always play off the blue tees on Saturdays and Wednesdays (Sat is members only day), however you can choose to play off the whites if your HCP is above 24 or so. On sundays, it's always off the whites though.

I'm not sure if this is how most clubs in Australia do it, but the couple of 'greats' I've played here seem to do it aswell. E.g Royal Melbourne.

Pup

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