Back tees at Major venues

[Phil Benedict]

A couple of years ago I played Baltusrol in a business outing.  The course was set up short from the tees we played because of the high hack quotient in our group.  I almost had to laugh looking back towards the championship tees because they were so far away from where we were hitting from.  I mean a full wedge away!  After driiving into a fairway bunker on one hole my caddie told me the bunker was added to challenge the pros from the new championship tees, which were about 50 yards back from where I hit.  Talk about making me feel inadequate.

[Anthony Butler]

You used to be able to play the Open tees at Pinehurst #2... at least the ones used for the 1999 Open. I don't believe they have some of the new 2005 tees set up regularly.

You are welcome to play the backs though... You really have to hit a quality iron shot to hold the green from where you end up off the back tees.

[Tom_Doak]

I played all the way back at Indian Creek the other day because my host thought I should see "the whole course".  But it's only 6900 yards, and that was really too much for me.

I've mentioned it before but when I was in Scotland in 1982, Carnoustie had a set-up where they rotated their tee markers to play six holes from the Open Championship tees, six from the normal tees, and six from the way-up tees every day.  This was probably a bit too much for most people, but I wish more clubs would put a couple of tees back and a couple forward each day.  It might help more people to understand just how much harder the back tees are, and how the distance gap has become exaggerated by modern equipment.

[Jed Peters]

The only two US Open courses I've played are OC Lake and Pebble.

OC Lake is incredibly long from the tippy tips. In fact, I don't see how anyone can pull off those shots.

I'll play pebble in 2 weeks, maybe playing the new open tees.

We'll see.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I played all the way back at Indian Creek the other day because my host thought I should see "the whole course".  But it's only 6900 yards, and that was really too much for me.

I've mentioned it before but when I was in Scotland in 1982, Carnoustie had a set-up where they rotated their tee markers to play six holes from the Open Championship tees, six from the normal tees, and six from the way-up tees every day.  This was probably a bit too much for most people, but I wish more clubs would put a couple of tees back and a couple forward each day.  It might help more people to understand just how much harder the back tees are, and how the distance gap has become exaggerated by modern equipment.

Tom Doak,

I think the difficulty with this process is course ratings and handicaps

As long as the tee markers balance out to the slope and rating for that particular set, it's fine, but, can you imaging the confusion in doing this with three or four sets of markers ?

[JESII]

That seems like a bogus argument against a pretty nice suggestion, Patrick.

Do you stand on the first tee negotiating course ratings with each pla...oh, forget it!

[JMEvensky]

I've mentioned it before but when I was in Scotland in 1982, Carnoustie had a set-up where they rotated their tee markers to play six holes from the Open Championship tees, six from the normal tees, and six from the way-up tees every day.
 

We tried something similar a couple years ago.Three sets of tee markers were all set together--6 back,6 middle,6 forward.Everyone was encouraged to play the golf course this way just to see it differently.

The complaints came from the usual middle tee players who didn't like having to play from the forward markers because they were too short.Go figure.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

MARK,
The big difference on this side of the Atlantic is that they actually let you play from the back tees!

I have never understood that reluctance to allow play from the back tees that exists in the UK...iT IS ALMOST AN OBSESSION to not allow you to use them.

I went to an Open venue with a previous Open Champion in my foursome, and was still not allowed to play from the "Chmpionship" tees....why have them if you are not going to allow play from them.

I have never been told that I cannot use the back tees in this country..nowhere.
I remember in my stubborn younger days at home, having to go before the committee for consistent playing from the non tees of the day...what bullshit.

[K. Krahenbuhl]

I went to an Open venue with a previous Open Champion in my foursome, and was still not allowed to play from the "Chmpionship" tees....why have them if you are not going to allow play from them.

That's good stuff.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Years ago, 1989 to be more precise, I played Royal Troon with a member. They were being encouraged to use the Open Championship tees because, as they are so rarely used, they were spongy and needed treading down. This was about three weeks before the Open. On several holes, such as the 13th, I couldn't even reach the fairway and simply lost my ball in the deep rough twixt tee and fairway. I was playing reasonably competently back then and was considered one of the longer hitters among my handicap group (then about 11 - it should now be 111!).

I also played Wentworth West as a member's guest the day after Langer won the PGA Championship (1987) playing from the same tees and to the same final day pins (they had not cut the greens). My score was, I think, 95, playing to a handicap of about 10 or 11. Langer's 4-round total was 270, averaging 67.5 per round. Had I played 4 rounds with him I should have trailed him by 110 strokes!

[Adrian_Stiff]

MARK,
The big difference on this side of the Atlantic is that they actually let you play from the back tees!

I have never understood that reluctance to allow play from the back tees that exists in the UK...iT IS ALMOST AN OBSESSION to not allow you to use them.

I went to an Open venue with a previous Open Champion in my foursome, and was still not allowed to play from the "Chmpionship" tees....why have them if you are not going to allow play from them.

I have never been told that I cannot use the back tees in this country..nowhere.
I remember in my stubborn younger days at home, having to go before the committee for consistent playing from the non tees of the day...what bullshit.

Michael- Mainly it will be due to wear problems, typically championship tees are very small and in the UK our growing season is quite restricted. The championship tees are often used once or twice a year. At my club we allow their use except at par 3 holes where we ask for the players (usually pro's) to use the normal tees. It is very upsetting when somebody breaks this rule.

[Sean_A]

I think the lack of use could also be down to lack of maintenance.  The tees don't need to be cut as much if guys aren't playing them and to be honest, if this is the case, I can understand not wanting to keep cutting tees for for the odd game every week.  I know at Burnham members and their guests can play the medal tees anytime they like, but the championship tees are a no go zone.  I did hear talk at one place of allowing the championship tees to be used one or two days a week with a surcharge.  Anyway, I could be convinced to open the champ tees if permission from the sec is obtained.  They should know when things are VERY slow and be able to verify handicap certs.  Of course, I would like to see the folks charged extra for causing the sec grief.  However, I am still doubtful because this could open up a terrible can of worms with members.

Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

Sean - The tees still need to be cut or you very quickly lose the surface, although you could miss every other cut and then they would be a bit scruffy. What takes time mowing is moving the tee markers off and then back, you coud probaby cut 2 naked tees versus 1 markered up !!!! It can be a nuisance to have a dedicated set rarely used and some good players hit mutiple shots and its hard to patrol the whole thing...easier to say they are out of play.

[Sean_A]

Sean - The tees still need to be cut or you very quickly lose the surface, although you could miss every other cut and then they would be a bit scruffy. What takes time mowing is moving the tee markers off and then back, you coud probaby cut 2 naked tees versus 1 markered up !!!! It can be a nuisance to have a dedicated set rarely used and some good players hit mutiple shots and its hard to patrol the whole thing...easier to say they are out of play.

Adrian

Yes, I realize short areas still need to be cut fairly often, but some maintenance could still by saved by reducing the cuts for champ tees.  As it happens, I agree with you.  It is easier to shut down the champ tees, but I still like the idea of a bit of compromise for rare exceptions.  I don't have any desire whatsoever to step back, but I do like using quite a few medal tees at Burnham because of the different angles created - its one of Burnham's best design traits.  Indeed, I would love to see even more tees added where there is plenty of space and angles can be altered.  For instance, I think the club is missing a trick with the 12th.  They could slap a tee on the dune behind the 11th green which would create a par 3.  You can't beat having the same green housing such dramatically different holes and I suspect many people would choose this tee over the current one.   #s 3 & 16 could also have additional tees.  In truth, if the current Burnham were scrapped, I think an all-world course could be designed.  Burnham is a product of piecemeal design as and when money and land became available.  Imagine a fresh design with the current property?  Sorry for the OT slippage.  I can't help it, its in my nature.

Ciao

[V. Kmetz]

Following Up on what Tom Doak had to say about Carnoustie rotating tees

Amazingly enough, it rekindled a thing that i've been jumping up and down about for years.  Brae Burn CC, a private club in Purchase, NY (where I still make a couple loops in the summer) had a similar system from their opening in 1965 to about 1996.  The course had six holes where Gold was always the forward marker. six holes where it was the always the middle tee, and six holes where it was always the back tee; with Blue and White having the same dispersal pattern.  Instead of moving the tees around for everyday play, they merely flew a Gold, Blue or White pennant on a flag pole over the putting green.  You were to play the markers corresponding to that color.

It was FANTASTIC.  You got three courses played from a near-middle tees total of one, all with distinct properties and tee strategies that were notorious for how they played.  Ironically enough the three courses played inversely to the way Blue, White and Gold usually represent as the Gold course converted four already-tough holes in brutes; the White course played the most conservatively and only gave  true advantage on two holes, while the Blue course seemed to lead to the lowest scores if you could navigate two (2) holes that were hardest from that marker.

Plus, you still had the portability of agreeing to playi your round from the "Backs" or the "Middles" or "Forwards" all of which were rated and sloped as their own course.  For match tournaments the pro would flight the field off of this scheme.  It was great.  I wish they had not abandoned it when renovations were done in the late 90s.

Cheers

VK

[Adrian_Stiff]

Sean - The tees still need to be cut or you very quickly lose the surface, although you could miss every other cut and then they would be a bit scruffy. What takes time mowing is moving the tee markers off and then back, you coud probaby cut 2 naked tees versus 1 markered up !!!! It can be a nuisance to have a dedicated set rarely used and some good players hit mutiple shots and its hard to patrol the whole thing...easier to say they are out of play.

Adrian

Yes, I realize short areas still need to be cut fairly often, but some maintenance could still by saved by reducing the cuts for champ tees.  As it happens, I agree with you.  It is easier to shut down the champ tees, but I still like the idea of a bit of compromise for rare exceptions.  I don't have any desire whatsoever to step back, but I do like using quite a few medal tees at Burnham because of the different angles created - its one of Burnham's best design traits.  Indeed, I would love to see even more tees added where there is plenty of space and angles can be altered.  For instance, I think the club is missing a trick with the 12th.  They could slap a tee on the dune behind the 11th green which would create a par 3.  You can't beat having the same green housing such dramatically different holes and I suspect many people would choose this tee over the current one.   #s 3 & 16 could also have additional tees.  In truth, if the current Burnham were scrapped, I think an all-world course could be designed.  Burnham is a product of piecemeal design as and when money and land became available.  Imagine a fresh design with the current property?  Sorry for the OT slippage.  I can't help it, its in my nature.

Ciao

We have gone a bit off topic here but I have played the championship tees at Burnham a few times; the 2nd and 14th are the only real differences, perhaps 6 as well ( I dont think I have played the 8th at 550, if it is that now). We have talked about an upgrade of Burnham and I'd love the job, its in my area but I know some of the things I would do you did not like..I would extend the 3rd via a green beyond the hollow, add length to 5, straighten out 7 and add, perhaps look to add a bit at 10 if they own or could acquire a bit more property, that would take it to around 7000 yards which I think is long enough.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I am sorry gents, these are simply excuses when one claims wera and tear as the reason...does that same reasoning not also apply once one crosses the Atlantic, or is there suddenly some magic growth potential on this side of the pond.
Many of the back tees at Merion and Pine Valley are TINY..but you are still welcome to play from them.

I think it is just another example of the old school pompus attitude of British Privtae Clubs and the desire of somebody weilding power.

[Sean_A]

Sean - The tees still need to be cut or you very quickly lose the surface, although you could miss every other cut and then they would be a bit scruffy. What takes time mowing is moving the tee markers off and then back, you coud probaby cut 2 naked tees versus 1 markered up !!!! It can be a nuisance to have a dedicated set rarely used and some good players hit mutiple shots and its hard to patrol the whole thing...easier to say they are out of play.

Adrian

Yes, we are off topic, but still beating around the fringes of the subject.  

Yes, I realize short areas still need to be cut fairly often, but some maintenance could still by saved by reducing the cuts for champ tees.  As it happens, I agree with you.  It is easier to shut down the champ tees, but I still like the idea of a bit of compromise for rare exceptions.  I don't have any desire whatsoever to step back, but I do like using quite a few medal tees at Burnham because of the different angles created - its one of Burnham's best design traits.  Indeed, I would love to see even more tees added where there is plenty of space and angles can be altered.  For instance, I think the club is missing a trick with the 12th.  They could slap a tee on the dune behind the 11th green which would create a par 3.  You can't beat having the same green housing such dramatically different holes and I suspect many people would choose this tee over the current one.   #s 3 & 16 could also have additional tees.  In truth, if the current Burnham were scrapped, I think an all-world course could be designed.  Burnham is a product of piecemeal design as and when money and land became available.  Imagine a fresh design with the current property?  Sorry for the OT slippage.  I can't help it, its in my nature.

Ciao

We have gone a bit off topic here but I have played the championship tees at Burnham a few times; the 2nd and 14th are the only real differences, perhaps 6 as well ( I dont think I have played the 8th at 550, if it is that now). We have talked about an upgrade of Burnham and I'd love the job, its in my area but I know some of the things I would do you did not like..I would extend the 3rd via a green beyond the hollow, add length to 5, straighten out 7 and add, perhaps look to add a bit at 10 if they own or could acquire a bit more property, that would take it to around 7000 yards which I think is long enough.

Yes, we are off topic, but still beating around the fringes of the subject.  

Well Adrian, you are in for big surprise.  Some of the changes you suggest are underway as we write.  

The Champ tees make a big difference on on many holes.

#1- Nowhere to go.  

#2  The hole is actually made easier from the Champ tees because the dogleg aspect is straightened out.  They should be looking to make a champ tee further back and left from the daily tee to make bombers shape their tee ball.  

#3 They should use the lower tee right side of the tee used for #17 for the champ tees then there is no need to push the green back.  Same distance hole, but the tee shot is a lot harder from there.  Shame on you for wanting to take out some of the old-time character of Burnham.  Remember, the course is first and foremost for friendly play among members.  When the wind is up, your suggestion would be a killer hole.  

#4 They can go back way back for the champ tees if they want, but I like the hole just fine as it is.  

#5 The champ tee has been pushed miles back to the a tee used for the Channel course.  Something like an extra 45 yards - massive difference.

#6  The can push the champ tee way back and toward the 5th tee if they want

#7 No way should this hole be straightened.  That dogleg effect with the ridge and bunker would be completely negated.  Again, this champ tee be pushed back.

#8 There is a huge difference between the whites and champs on this hole.  Plus, there are now three new bunkers down the left pinching the drive.  Not sure if I like it.

#9 Could push the champ tee back down the 8th, but it would be problematical for playing up the 8th.

#10 Champ tee is now back 20 yards or so.

#11 Another hole which can be made as long as they like for champ play.

#12 Nothing to be done really.  I spose you could put in a sadistic tee back and right of the 11th green, but the fairway would be very difficult to hold from that angle.  Not a good plan imo unless the fairway was changed - I don't like this idea.    

#13 New tees are being pushed back another 20 yards or so and a new reservoir is being built behind them.  They could make this as long as they want.  

#14  Tough hole - no change needed.

#15 New champ tee back and left - actually old tee re-instated. Hole is miles harder from back there.

#16 New tees back about 20 yards or so.  Much more difficult to drive - not sure this is a great idea because of the lurking trouble left for those who lose it out there.  In fact, I think they should be a shorter hitter for daily play and create one huge fairway across #s 16 & 3.  Perhaps put another bunker or two further out right between the Majuba and the green.  

#17 No change needed - nowhere to go.  

#18 No change needed - nowhere to go.  

When the course is set up for champs this year it will be about 6950 yards, but honestly, they could create a 7300 yard course quite easily if they wanted.  Lets hope they don't.  In total, the course is still reliant on wind to challenge the likes of the Brabazon amateurs and English AM amateurs.  7000 yards compared to 6800 makes little or no difference to the flat bellies.  One day folks will figure out that you can't combat length with length unless we are willing to get really crazy and push up past 7500 yards.  Archies have to outfox the golfer - not try to beat him down.  



"I am sorry gents, these are simply excuses when one claims wera and tear as the reason...does that same reasoning not also apply once one crosses the Atlantic, or is there suddenly some magic growth potential on this side of the pond.
Many of the back tees at Merion and Pine Valley are TINY..but you are still welcome to play from them."

"I think it is just another example of the old school pompus attitude of British Privtae Clubs and the desire of somebody weilding power."

Michael - you could be right, but remember that nearly all UK clubs don't have anything like the budgets of the clubs you mentioned and lets hope it they never do.   

Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

I am sorry gents, these are simply excuses when one claims wera and tear as the reason...does that same reasoning not also apply once one crosses the Atlantic, or is there suddenly some magic growth potential on this side of the pond.
Many of the back tees at Merion and Pine Valley are TINY..but you are still welcome to play from them.

I think it is just another example of the old school pompus attitude of British Privtae Clubs and the desire of somebody weilding power.

Michael its much different in the UK, if you go to Scotland the season is very restricted, even in the South growthstarts in April and keeps going up to October, but you need time for the new grass to grow, some UK clubs dont have irrigation on tees either, but that magic growth potential is called THE SUN and there are a number of grasses which we struggle to grow here and we might only have a 4 months vigours germination period, if you go South in the states you coud grow grass in 6 weeks that takes us 52.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Sean we discussed the change at the 3rd once before, I suppose it would add 50 yards, I like the green on that back plateau, nice views beyond on the sea, equally I like the green in the hollow. I dont think you can extend 4 does that land not fall away significantly behind? If not this should be extended, 6 is 460 now so not much could be added if you wanted to retain it as a 4. 7 I think was better in the old days when it was straight, its a tougher tee shot, but I am ony advocating these changes for championship tees, not for TOD... just the 3rd would be my change

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Adrian,
I see your point really I do...but how many peopel would actually play from those tees anyway.
Royal Birkdale for instance...the walk to the back tees would put most players off

Plus the limited amount of gueast play would automatically limit its usage.

The Old course is a differnt prospect though..all that play would certainly damamge the tees...do you not think the Old School adage is somewhat approriate?

[Sean_A]

Sean we discussed the change at the 3rd once before, I suppose it would add 50 yards, I like the green on that back plateau, nice views beyond on the sea, equally I like the green in the hollow. I dont think you can extend 4 does that land not fall away significantly behind? If not this should be extended, 6 is 460 now so not much could be added if you wanted to retain it as a 4. 7 I think was better in the old days when it was straight, its a tougher tee shot, but I am ony advocating these changes for championship tees, not for TOD... just the 3rd would be my change

Adrian, yes, I realize you are speaking of champ tees only, but somebody has to pay for those changes!  Its all well and good to talk about crackin' on the flat bellies, but the members can't cope with the medal tees and I am not sure the powers that be give money to make the changes.  

BTW I think #6 is closer to 435, but they could make it 460ish.  Mind you, a tee back on that dune might impact the aesthetics of #5 which would be a shame.  So in the end, I would be against it.  Pushing the tee back on #5 made sense because it was free, but what a brutal it is from back there - I think 201 yards.  

You stay away with your ideas of straightening #7!  It would turn one of the coolest holes on the course into a bland slog.  The angle of the ridge to the tee makes the hole - besides that is where the links terrain is.  Trying to turn the hole into a gauntlet between the bunker and and water is the area of fairway which is prone to wetness.  If anything, I wouldn't mind seeing the fairway pushed out left up to the oob fence.  Nor would I mind seeing the rough cut down to the water so balls end up swimming rather than folks hacking through that dreadful rough.  Plus, one can't tell if he went in the hazard or not and has to take a lost ball penalty if the can't find the ball.  I don't think there is enough of taking advantage of the boundary lines in this manner.  Same goes for #10.  Push the fairway out left and don't allow rough to hold balls up from their rightful fate.  Besides, that rough is the best line of approach and I am sure that is how it ws in the old days when Colt designed the hole.  

Look for my take on the course which should be posted very shortly.

Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

Sean we have touched on this before but Burnhams Old 6th was a great hole and then you walked off left to the 7th tee, the hole was straight but the fairway canted a bit to the right... ditch I think, ideal tee shot was a bit left but a bit too much and you flirted with that cross ridge sending the ball left. If you have time, have a walk over. Its not the greatest hole by any means and lots see #7 as the poor hole on the course, I wonder if there could be any mileage in a new hole using a simiar tee to the TOD now but go into the dunes more in line with the back tee for 13.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Adrian,
I see your point really I do...but how many peopel would actually play from those tees anyway.
Royal Birkdale for instance...the walk to the back tees would put most players off

Plus the limited amount of gueast play would automatically limit its usage.

The Old course is a differnt prospect though..all that play would certainly damamge the tees...do you not think the Old School adage is somewhat approriate?

Michael - I think for Open champ venues probably quite a lot woud want to play if it was on offer. Reality is than few golfers worse than hcp 3 could enjoy the relentless carries over rough that some of these tees 50 yards or more further back. I have known pro's not be abe to make the fairways when it puffs. Probably if you had 4 great golfers (they dont take divots) and they used the normal medal tees at the short holes it would be okay, but one problem you have trying to run a course is the golfers dont always follow the rules. Some of these links courses have difficulities filling in fairway divots in April and its okay by July if the weather gets sour.

[Sean_A]

Sean we have touched on this before but Burnhams Old 6th was a great hole and then you walked off left to the 7th tee, the hole was straight but the fairway canted a bit to the right... ditch I think, ideal tee shot was a bit left but a bit too much and you flirted with that cross ridge sending the ball left. If you have time, have a walk over. Its not the greatest hole by any means and lots see #7 as the poor hole on the course, I wonder if there could be any mileage in a new hole using a simiar tee to the TOD now but go into the dunes more in line with the back tee for 13.

Yes, many members liked the very old 6th, but the changes in the 70s put rest to that.  First, #13 cruises near where that old green was.  2nd, that land is a bit wet for ideal golf.  I have checked out the green-site and do have a good mental picture of what #7 would have looked like.  Mind you, the 7th green was pushed further left as well.  It is thought that the new reservoir and pump system will better control the water flow of the ditch running down #s 7 & 8.  The water table is so high that the club is at the total mercy of the weather and I think have tried their best to keep greens away from this area - quite sensible imo.  There is also talk of pushing the 16th green back and perhaps raising it a bit.  I got laughed at when I suggested using all that lovely sand from the new reservoir to cap the 16th fairway.  I don't think folks can envision raising the fairway from 150 in. I could also see using the sand to extend the line of low dunes on #8 left (maybe enough to build bunkers) so as to eliminate those stupid circles of rough.  Though I am told these are protected areas for some stupid flower.  In any case, they could bring the rough out to meet this stupid circles and at least make them look more natural while extending the fairway out left.  Its not ideal, but jesus I hate those stupid circles.

I would respectfully disagree with differing opinions on #7.  It is the sleeper of the course and a great example of what I think architecture should be trying to do.  You could build a hole from the current #7 toward the back tee of #13, but then the left tee of #8 would be stranded and we would lose one of the best greens on the course.   No, I don't buy it.  The course has enough greens built or shelved into dunes with fall-offs and would lose some balance of green-sites by losing a grade level green, but I would have to snoop around #13 tee to have a look. 

Ciao

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