Back tees at Major venues

[Mark_Rowlinson]

How often are the back tees of courses such as ANGC, Winged Foot, Oakmont etc used apart from during Major championships? At St Andrews the back tees of one or two holes such as the 1st and 18th will be used a lot, while the Open tees at the 2nd, 13th and 14th certainly won't be. I can imagine that visitors to resorts such as Pebble Beach or Pinehurst might want a shot from the back tees if they were allowed and could prove that they were good enough. At venues such as Royal St George's they might play the Challenge Cup from such tees - Royal Lytham, too, with the Lytham Trophy. But my experience of Open Championship courses in the UK is that the tees for almost every members' competition will make the course several hundred yards shorter - and the normal medal card used for handicapping purposes will indicate this.

[Sean Eidson]

When I played at Torrey Pines one month after the US Open, the scorecard said that the championship tees were by invitation only or something like that.  There were no tee box markers on the rear most tees and it certainly seemed like you have to have your name on a bag to play there.

More importantly, on several holes, they seemed so long and at different angles as to totally distort the strategic intent of the hole.  I'll forget which Par 3 on the back had this feature, but we played from the whites and it was about 175 yards into the wind.  There was a blue tee box that could extend it another 25-40 yards.  But there was a black tee box that was 30 yards left and 10-20 yards longer than the blue tee and over a large native area for about 180 yards before going over a greenside bunker.  I remember thinking it was really goofy in that any pro worth his sticks would carry it all the way to the green, but no 15 handicapper like me would have any business hitting from that tee box.   

On the flipside, I played at Harding Park on Dec 26th and we played the blue (6850) tees.  We played off of several tees that must have been used for the President's cup.  There were a few holes with longer (40+ yards in some cases) tee boxes, but on many of the par 3's, for example, there was no more room for a longer tee.

[Mark Chaplin]

Open scratch events & club championships are usually played off the stones and from my experience a couple of other events each year. Simply most championship courses are too tough off the back tees for the average player.

At Walton Heath the back tees stretch to around 7400yds I'm not short off the tee but would struggle to reach the odd fairway and find little interest in playing every par 3 on championship courses at 200+ yards.

[john_stiles]

Sometimes, on the links Open courses,  it is a waste of time to even find the back tees.   Without markers at these tees, and high grass and such, you can't even find a few without searching unless it is fresh in your mind from the telecast.    It certainly cuts down on playing and quaffing time to find some back markers.

Seems like Troon comes to mind in that regard.    

On another course,  you have to look over a wall or fence.   " Pardon me sir.  Mind if I jump over and play that tee over there on your course ! "  

McGwiroism :    I was chased off the back tees at Cruden Bay on my first trip,  many years ago before I knew.  My suspicion was that it was not permitted.

[Neil Regan]

Mark,

  At Winged Foot the back (Blue) tees are used every day, and usually set all the way back. The West Course also has a set of Black tees that are usually set from 6800 - 7000. Those tees are probably used a bit more than the Blue.

  On the West, the 3rd at 250 is probably played the least often.(Jones in 1929 and Billy Casper in 1959 played it about 215, which is typically the Black mark these days.) The 12th at 645 is sometimes skipped even when playing the Blues because of the walk back > 100 yards. The 4th and 8th at 460+, the 14th at 460, and the 16th at 480, all lengthened in recent years, are played regularly by many members and guests.

[JLahrman]

Open scratch events & club championships are usually played off the stones and from my experience a couple of other events each year. Simply most championship courses are too tough off the back tees for the average player.

I played in a scratch event at NCR a couple of years ago.  Supposedly we used tees that were built for the 2005 US Senior Open but were rarely used in that event.  They weren't adding 100 yards per hole or anything like that, but enough yardage was added to make an already-difficult course VERY tough.  I had a lousy day, but I wouldn't be interested in playing that course regularly from those tees.  Disclaimer - I was playing to about a 7 or 8 for the event.  I was probably a little out of my league, especially given it was the first time that I played the course, but I can't see anybody who's not a 5 handicap at most really wanting to play those tees on a regular basis unless said player is a real glutton for punishment.

[Ryan Admussen]

When I played at Torrey Pines one month after the US Open, the scorecard said that the championship tees were by invitation only or something like that.  There were no tee box markers on the rear most tees and it certainly seemed like you have to have your name on a bag to play there.

More importantly, on several holes, they seemed so long and at different angles as to totally distort the strategic intent of the hole.  I'll forget which Par 3 on the back had this feature, but we played from the whites and it was about 175 yards into the wind.  There was a blue tee box that could extend it another 25-40 yards.  But there was a black tee box that was 30 yards left and 10-20 yards longer than the blue tee and over a large native area for about 180 yards before going over a greenside bunker.  I remember thinking it was really goofy in that any pro worth his sticks would carry it all the way to the green, but no 15 handicapper like me would have any business hitting from that tee box.   

On the flipside, I played at Harding Park on Dec 26th and we played the blue (6850) tees.  We played off of several tees that must have been used for the President's cup.  There were a few holes with longer (40+ yards in some cases) tee boxes, but on many of the par 3's, for example, there was no more room for a longer tee.

They said by permission only on the Torrey Pines scorecard, and thank God, it was slow enough with people playing the 7000 yard tees that shouldn't have been!

[Jaeger Kovich]

Bethpage Black - They will only use all their US Open tees during the NY state Open, including playing #7 as a par 4, but they will rotate them between rounds.

WFW - Everything goes back for the Anderson Invitational, except for maybe #3, and they will also rotate between rounds so holes like #12 aren't 3 miles long!

The Ocean Course (Kiawah) - Even their tournament tees don't go all the way back most days.

[noonan]

Open scratch events & club championships are usually played off the stones and from my experience a couple of other events each year. Simply most championship courses are too tough off the back tees for the average player.

I played in a scratch event at NCR a couple of years ago.  Supposedly we used tees that were built for the 2005 US Senior Open but were rarely used in that event.  They weren't adding 100 yards per hole or anything like that, but enough yardage was added to make an already-difficult course VERY tough.  I had a lousy day, but I wouldn't be interested in playing that course regularly from those tees.  Disclaimer - I was playing to about a 7 or 8 for the event.  I was probably a little out of my league, especially given it was the first time that I played the course, but I can't see anybody who's not a 5 handicap at most really wanting to play those tees on a regular basis unless said player is a real glutton for punishment.

The back tees on some of those holes are monsters.

#9 for example is right of 17 green and makes most golfers drives land in the hill not on top.

[JLahrman]

Jerry, being the only time I've played the course I can't say I remember the specifics, and I don't think you were available to play that day, but the course was definitely playing long.  I can say that #15 was playing at at least 245 yards, it was a monster.  I would hope that very few members play from where we did.

[David_Tepper]

The OC Lake course added one back tee (on #3) that has only been used, so far, during the US Amateur there in 2007. I have never seen it in play for regular member play or member tournaments.

Royal Dornoch has a couple of way back tees (on #12 & #15) that I have never seen in play for any member play or member medal events. I recall the way back tee on #15 was used during the Scottish Amateur Strokeplay several years ago, but that is the only time I have seen it in use. 

[noonan]

Jerry being the only time I've played the course I can't say I remember the specifics, and I don't think you were available to play that day, but the course was definitely playing long.  I can say that #15 was playing at at least 245 yards, it was a monster.  I would hope that very few members play from where we did.

My buddy I played with out there insisted on playing the tips. 15 is a monster. You cannot miss it left right or long. Short is not much of a bargain. I have played the 245 tee before.

[Kevin Cahoon]

I have played at Medinah 3 on numerous occasions and I do not remember even seeing the gold tees on the far back tee boxes.  I have seen members go back to play 13 and 17 from way back. The course is a brute from the silver markers. I don't believe I could have any fun from 7400 yards plus.

[Sean_A]

In a way I should be grateful to Carnoustie.  I recall playing that course from essentially the medal+ (we didn't have a choice as they were the tees of the day) tees back when I didn't care which tees I played - I just went with the crowd.  Now understand, as Mark R suggests, the Championship tees at UK courses are rarely used as a full set (sometimes some are used here and there) and I wasn't as far back as that at Carnoustie, but I reckon we pegged it at about 6900-7000 yards ( I think the very back tees are closer to 7300-7400 now, but then they were closer to 7100-7200) and the course was brutally difficult - with only a minor 12-15 mph wind.  This experience made me a firm believer of forward tees and I don't think I have stepped back to 7000 yards since. 

Ciao

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Although it's not a venue for majors, Murvagh (Donegal GC) was at one stage one of the longest courses in Europe at 7272 yds. When I first played there in the mid-80s, out of curiousity I went back and had a look at the back tees on each hole. I had trouble finding them. Most were only about 8x8 feet and were in poor condition, resembling a recently cut hay field.

The first tee was on the other side of the entrance road and the hole measured 594 yds. The 2nd tee was hidden in long grass. The 5th tee was below the medal tee, in a hollow. I had trouble finding the 7th tee.

It was clear that they were never used. The Magee Senior Scratch Cup was biggest event held there and that was played from the medal tees which total about 6800 yds. The 2004 Irish Amateur Close Championship was played at Murvagh, however I've no idea if they played off the back tees or not.

I don't see the point in having back tees if they're only there as a status symbol.

[Jeff Spittel]

Played Olympic Lake last week and they weren't using many of the Open tees from the tips. The course is plenty long in that heavy cool air without having to deal with 500 yard par fours. I have no idea how anybody could par 16 as a four under Open conditions.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Neil Regan,

WFW from the tees that hosted the 1959 Open is a neat golf course, and a good test.
Even with # 9 and # 16 as par 4's.

WFW from the current back tees is more than a test for the best golfers in the World, the PGA Tour Pros.

[Neil Regan]

Pat,

  The 1929 Open at Winged Foot was played at virtually the same length as in 1959.
  I have an article by Walter Hagen, pre-tournament, discussing strategy for playing the course.
  The course played "longer" in some ways than it does today.
  It's interesting to see that Hagen does not necessarily plan to be on the green in Regulation, as it is called today.
  Rather, he might plan to be in good position at the green-site.
  (And I don't mean missing in the right spot.)

  I calll that concept Greensite-in-Regulation. I think it's a good thought to consider when designing a hole, and when studying one.
  Tillinghast, as is well-known, spoke emphatically of designing his approaches with as much care as he designed the green itself.

[Jason Topp]

Hazeltine has them open.  I have played them a couple of times. If you ever have illusions that you could play with tour pros, one round from those tees will shatter any such illusion.

[Tommy Williamsen]

The back tees at Congressional are open but not necessarily on the same day.

[jonathan_becker]

Three friends of mine played Oakmont the thursday after the 2007 Open.  At the time, all were under a 2 handicap and their host made them play from not the back tees, but with their right foot in the rough.  I don't know how far that makes the course play, (maybe 7500+ ?) but they all said it was out of control.  #8 played 301 that day and they all had to hit driver.

One guy shot 80 doubling #18 (very impressive in my book), because he hit nearly every fw.  The 2 others shot 97 and 99 and they stated that it was nearly impossible just trying to recover from the rough.  All agreed that they would never play from back there again.  

[JLahrman]

Here I am trying out the back tee at the 12th at Olympic.  Being graciously hosted by a fellow GCAer, I was greatly enjoying my round until he insisted I try this shot.  The normal tees are up where my father-in-law is standing.



My setup looks Tour-quality, not sure what caused my drive to take a hard right into the trees.  The picture makes the tee shot look somewhat narrower than it is.  But not much.

David, to what yardage can #3 be stretched?

[David_Tepper]

Joel L. -

I think #3 on the OC Lake is 245-ish yards from the way back tee. Of course, it is all downhill!

DT

[Kevin Lynch]

When I played Whistling Straits, they had a set of markers placed in the same positions as Sunday of the 2004 PGA.  The caddies indicated you were free to use those tees if you wanted.  They weren't on the scorecard and were usually well behind the "Tips" per the card.

Common sense prevailed for me and I played the "human" tees, but the Caddies prodded us to see how we stood up to the PGA tees at times.  After a Birdie and two Pars on 12-14, the caddy said "you're ready" and directed me to the PGA tee on 15.  I walked about 50 yards past the "Tips" and turned around to face a 518 yard Par 4 INTO THE WIND.  Driver / 3 Wood (yes, persimmon) put me in the greenside bunker, but I couldn't salvage the PGA Par.


Most other Major courses I've been to (Oakmont, Bethpage, Oak Hill) don't have the markers set up on the Pro Tee Boxes, but I can't say as I've even been told that it's "prohibited" to make my own tees.  The real prohibition comes via the "who are you kidding?" look you receive from starters & caddies.  I'd suggest you sample those tees on 1-2 holes, which should be enough for you to realize you'd be wasting your time.

[Mike Cirba]

When I was young, ego-driven, and foolish, I used to look for back tees.  Essentially, I kidded myself that I could actually play a bit.. 

Since breaching age 50, I find it a pleasure and a relief to find the member tees.

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