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Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Does the golf course name "Loblolly" remind anyone else of the character played by Scott Baio on Arrested Development? 

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
I played Indian Creek this afternoon, and though I would not rate it as highly as Seminole, it is clearly the next best of the courses I have seen in the area.

On top of the interesting design, the greens were perfect, and the clubhouse was one of the most beautiful I've seen.

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
 ;D :D ;)


having only played Seminole a few times I'm far from an expert on the course but I'd still thinkthat Seminole and Indian Creek stand above the rest .....Indian Creek is a fascinating golf course , not the hardest by any means but tremendous fun to play

Patrick_Mucci

Archie,

You need to come and play Pine Tree and Boca Rio

Tom Doak,

Were you wearing long underwear and winter gear ?

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Pat,
I played Indian Creek and Pinetree last week and you talk about cold....The supt at Indian Creek was describing the Iguanas as "popsicles" because they could not move and the osprey would just grab them and have a snack......
Both were great golf courses and as TD says the Clubhouse lockeroom at Indian Creek ( Mizner) one of the best....especially the locker room woodwork  PLUS..they had a bowl of M&M's.
PT has a good thing going there...just an overall good feel and a good supt........loved it except for the cold...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Patrick_Mucci

Mike,

There's something about that Mizner architecture that's really neat and quite unique.

It has that Spanish/Tropical feel.

Super's in FL are telling me that the greens are getting as fast as Linoleum.

I've got to get down to Indian Creek one of these days, maybe in March or April

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Pat,
I played Indian Creek and Pinetree last week and you talk about cold....The supt at Indian Creek was describing the Iguanas as "popsicles" because they could not move and the osprey would just grab them and have a snack......
Both were great golf courses and as TD says the Clubhouse lockeroom at Indian Creek ( Mizner) one of the best....especially the locker room woodwork  PLUS..they had a bowl of M&M's.
PT has a good thing going there...just an overall good feel and a good supt........loved it except for the cold...

Mike,
  The Iguanas have been falling out of the trees...dead...they don't like the cold weather....
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Niall Hay

  • Karma: +0/-0
I played Indian Creek this afternoon, and though I would not rate it as highly as Seminole, it is clearly the next best of the courses I have seen in the area.


How does Jupiter Hills compare? After the top 2 of Seminole and Indian Creek, what are the other stand outs?

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
 ;D :D ;)


Pat , I'm pretty familiar with both Pine Tree and Boca Rio ...like them both but still put the top two as Seminole and Indian Creek. As stated I'm no expert on Seminole but can speak with conviction on Indian Creek..

as to Indian Creek

here's the holes I like

1,2,3 ,4, 5, 6, 7, 8 , and #9 on the front

back nine

10,11, 12, 13, 14 ,15 , 16 , 17 an d 18  on the back  !   LOL   really! 

of course being a Philly homer this is one of my favorite architects

 there is not a bad hole on the course , the greens are intricate in  design , pretty hard to read  and at tournament speed are pretty funky for Florida  ...a real good thing !

I like that Indian Creek will let you shoot a good score ,  yet can be twisted up pretty good for a tournament ....there's some real fun back in the Bermuda Triangle  of 11, 12 and 13  ....lots of big lead swings in tournament play

« Last Edit: January 12, 2010, 03:55:27 PM by archie_struthers »

Chuck Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
I'd not disagree with any of the discussion of the courses already mentioned.

The Loxahatchee Club has not been mentioned; it is very much a Nicklaus design, with his company's fingerprints all over it, and is therefore a design likely to get some criticism among the GCA membership.  Personally, I liked it for what it was.  I thought it a very gamey golf course, although clearly not in the same legendary category of Seminole (deferring to those who know it), or even the 'superb' secondary category for which I'd nominate Pine Tree, CC of Florida and Jupiter Hills.

I've never been to Lost Tree Village, either; that's another one that no one has mentioned.

And whatever happened to PGA National-later-renamed-Ballen Isle-and-now-who-knows?
« Last Edit: January 12, 2010, 07:51:16 PM by Chuck Brown »

Robert Emmons

  • Karma: +0/-0
Chuck,

PGA National became JDM and now it is Ballenisles...RHE

KBanks

  • Karma: +0/-0
Don't know the other courses (would like to!), but I have to join the amen chorus around Seminole and Indian Creek. They seem to stand apart as they have so many good things in common: windy sites, firm conditions, reasonably generous fairways, lack of reliance on tall grass, strategic bunkering, interesting green complexes, excellent short par four and half par holes, and, atypically for Florida golf, a refreshing lack of reliance on water hazards. I could go on and on about them. Seminole's topography is superior, but the story of how Indian Creek was built is amazing to consider after you see the place. Wayne Morrison feels it ranks with Lido in that regard.

They both rate very high on the non-gca side too: the clubhouses, locker rooms, and atmosphere of each are among the best in golf.

Ken

Niall Hay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Pine Tree seems to be very well regarded on this site as well, what is it that makes it special?

Mark Woodger

i am heading to Delray Beach in a few weeks. Are there any good publics that compare to these courses? or do any of the best welcome non members? I am guessing they do not but thought worth asking.

What is the name of the course built on an old brownfield site/land fill?
« Last Edit: January 14, 2010, 07:26:16 PM by Mark Woodger »

Niall Hay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Sounds as though the most recent post on Seminole solidifies its place as the clear # 1 in this area....Florida and maybe farther...

Jeff_Lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Medalist has to be the youngest course ever to need a restoration. When it opened the course had a small maintenance issue. The fairways were extremely firm and without any rough on the course, balls had a tendency to roll just slightly off the fairway into unplayable lies. There was just a touch too much randomness involved with a fairly well-struck drive. I believe Nick Price commented at the time that the course needed a 3 foot strip of second cut and he was precisely correct (it has it now, though it doesn't need it as much any more).

The original course had a fantastic set of British-inspired greens that were low to the ground with wide entrances and lots of sod-walled bunkers. Yardages have always been marked to the front and this was a course that really demanded UK-style shots.  Some would complain that the greens didn't hold, but those same people wouldn't have that complaint in Scotland and I never understood it.  If there had been no low route into the greens, the criticism would have been apt, but there was always a bouncing option if the pin and the conditions demanded it.

The greatest aspect was the way that Dye and Norman tested you off the tee. The trouble off the tee was usually on the inside of the elbow, so if you challenged the trouble, your ball could run forever. If you flinched and took the outside lane, you often ran out of real estate and went into the jungle (deservedly).  Great risk-reward driving course originally.

The changes took both of these distinctive features away from the course.  Norman moved the fairway bunkers to the outside of the elbows and pushed the greens up and made them more "standard". Several of the best greens I have seen in Florida NLE and a couple of the greens now are among my least favorite anywhere - 5 and 11.

Still a fantastic place to spend a day golfing, but it sure brings a tear to my eye when I walk past those pictures of the old greens in the locker room.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mark,

The public brownfield course near Delray Beach is Roy Case's Park Ridge in Lake Worth. It's been discussed here many times and is definitely worth a play.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Ian Andrew

I’ll wade in a little here.

I played Loxahatchee, Country Club of Florida and Indian Creek over the last couple of days. I’ve also seen a bunch around Jacksonville, Orlando and Tampa too.

Indian Creek is a fantastic golf course made by the extensive use of short grass around some brilliantly contoured greens and a perfect set up conditioning to make them a great deal of fun to play shots into. I played everything from runners to pitch shots. I also found I could play anything from out the edges from a bump and run through to a putt if I wanted it to. The golf course is charming, fun and a little dangerous if you get a touch too aggressive. I wish I was a member.

Loxahatchee is typical of a lot of Florida Golf courses in it relies too much on water and the entire place is built. It’s not what I’m looking for but I found the members I played with were very happy with the golf course. The second green is one worth going to see.

Country Club of Florida was a bit of a surprise. I’ll be the first to admit that I don’t expect a lot when I go play any golf in Florida, but the course was well worth seeking out. I found the layout to be fun, much less reliance on water than usual and the undulations in a few holes were terrific. The bunkering was interesting and a lot more elaborate than I’m used to seeing – I think Lester did a really nice job. If you haven’t seen the course, I would suggest you do.

Also played: Pete Dye Course at St. Lucia (shear fun)

Niall Hay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Indian Creek sounds awesome and may be the most mysterious course out there with the fewest pictures available. Is it an easy course? Heard it is beautiful with a great clubhouse. Is it short? Yardage?

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
 ;D :D 8)


 Niall ...Indian Creek is a little short but really fun...great for all the members and the greens are so well   conceived  you could take weeks just examining the ideas Flynn had here ....   lots of triangles  and diamond shapes

Par fives are long fours for new age scratch players but thats ok  they are huge fun , great chipping areas lots of great stuff not counting the clubhouse which is one of a kind

Threes are outstanding hard pars in tournament conditions and if there is even a touch  of wind,,look out

Ray Floyd used to get ready for the tour here for years ...gambling with some high rolling members who could play a little ...his record scorecard is posted  (60 ??)  .     the golf  course has a fabulous interior range that is just wonderful for getting ready to play ....just a fabulous place
« Last Edit: April 10, 2010, 10:48:34 PM by archie_struthers »

Jeff_Lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Five years ago, in this topic, I posted that Medalist has to be the youngest course to ever need a restoration.  Starting in about four weeks, it will get one.   Amazing outcome!  Cannot wait to see some of our old holes brought back, and certainly cannot wait to see a few of the re-done holes hit the ash heap of history. 

Patrick_Mucci

Jeff,

I don't mean to correct you, but, this isn't the first time that the Medalist will smell the ether.

I sometimes don't get the concept of "ranking".

When that question is asked, "how does X course rank ?"  I always ask, in what context.

Difficulty ?
Fun ?
Conditions ?
Quality of the playing surfaces "
Enjoyment ?
Desire to play it on a repeat basis ?
Desire to play it to the exclusion of all others ?

So what does "ranking" mean ?

Seminole is simply fantastic.

The playing surfaces are spectacular, as is the architecture and............................ the wind.

Pine Tree's playing surfaces are also excellent and the architecture is excellent.
Pine Tree lacks the topography that Seminole enjoys and doesn't get quite as much wind.

I really like Indian Creek, it's very user friendly, but, I wouldn't quite put it in a category with Seminole, Pine Tree and Boca Rio.

Most natural South Florida courses are flat, dead flat.
Seminole, Jupiter Hills and CC of Florida are three that seem the exception.

I had a discussion the other day with some fairly good golfers (6) , one had recently played Doral Blue.

His comment:   It was too hard.

There was and may still be, a tendency to equate difficulty with quality architecture.

I want a challenge that's fun to meet, not one that beats you down on every hole.

Unfortunately, South Florida's courses often have water right and left, which when combined with good breezes, produces excess profits for the ball manufacturers.

But, the real problem won't be cured until the I&B get dialed back.

Three days ago a good friend of mine played with some Pros, one was one of the longer drivers on the European Tour.
My friend's drives are in the 280-320 range.
He said that the Pros hit their 3-woods further than his driver.
My friend hits a very long iron.
On one hole he indicated that he hit an 8-iron and that from the same distance, the Pros hit wedge.
He couldn't believe it.
In fact, he became so demoralized, that he stopped playing after 14 holes and just watched them because he was worn out from trying to keep up with them and lost his timing.

While Seminole, Pine Tree, Boca Rio, Indian Creek and other South Florida courses present all the challenge in the world for me, in order to challenge the best players in the world, don't courses have to be gimmicked up, or made unbearably hard for the average golfer.

Is Doral the new template ?

This summer, from the back tees Kevin Stadler shot a new course record at Shinnecock and, he could easily have been 4 shots or more lower.

Absent wind, I won't say that South Florida and Long Island courses are defenseless, but, against PGA Tour Pros, I don't think that there is a reasonable defense.

 

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Pat,

What is your opinion of letting the pro's play courses presented under every day conditions, no matter the outcome? Is there a downside to having pro's shoot way under par, regularly, while the rest of us play our own game? How do we downplay the effects of us mortals watching pro's shoot numbers ridiculously under par?

I have no problem letting them have their way, if it means less gimmickry in course setup.

I appreciated your perspective.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Patrick_Mucci


Pat,

What is your opinion of letting the pro's play courses presented under every day conditions, no matter the outcome?

I'm fine with it.
They play other courses almost every day that they're not playing in a tournament.


Is there a downside to having pro's shoot way under par, regularly, while the rest of us play our own game?

There's a huge downside, and quite frankly Joe, I'm surprised and disappointed in you.
How could you not see the downside ?

The inherent problem lies with the perception that because a Pro plays the course effortlessly and shoots numbers far below par, that the course is somehow inferior and needs to strengthen its defenses.

So, the process begins, longer tees, more bunkers, higher rough, more trees, more water, etc., etc..

And soon, the course is too difficult for the membership.

And, sadly, most of those defenses won't prevent more low rounds from the best golfers in the world.


How do we downplay the effects of us mortals watching pro's shoot numbers ridiculously under par?

How do you educate memberships ?
How do you stop the architectural arms race ?


I have no problem letting them have their way, if it means less gimmickry in course setup.

I agree, but, I think it highlights the need to reign in I&B.

With 350 yard drives, soon to be 400 yard drives, how can an architect create a course that presents an enjoyable challenge to the broad spectrum of golfer.

And, it's not just the Pros, amateurs, young and old are hitting 300+ yard drives


I appreciated your perspective.

Hope I've satisfied your curiosity  ;D


Joe

Pete Blaisdell

  • Karma: +0/-0
I had a condo in Deerfield Beach for 19 years and played most of the courses in the area.

Seminole is the clear # 1 , Pine Tree is one of my favorites as well as Jupiter Hills .

Two courses that I always enjoyed but never get much mention are Adios and the Everglades Club.

I agree with Pat that Boca Rio is a very strong course. Bring your A game.

I feel Old Marsh is overrated. Quail Ridge is a fun day. Indian Creek is worth your time.
' Golf courses are like wives and the prom queen doesn't always make for the best wife "

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