Crump & Wilson do Cobb's Creek "for the love of the game" - Now EVEN MORE Crump!

[Kyle Harris]

Thankfully, due to the fact that there were about 15 of them and only 2 of us, and they were letting us play through, no scuffle ensued and the authorities did not have to get involved.  

Actually, now that I think about it, they may well have abducted Kyle Harris who was originally supposed to have joined us.   

They took me to better Pho.

Speaking of that, the place in Willow Grove you took your daughter one day is now closed.

[Mike Cirba]

Ahhh...selling out to the Dark Side for their Superior Pho Tai, I see young grasshopper?  

Shame about the place in Willow Grove, but the place in Upper Darby near Cobb's was better anyway!    

[Mike Cirba]

My contention that prior to the Depression and the subsequent creation of Bethpage, Cobb's Creek was known as the best public course in the country was greeted with skepticism in some quarters.

Apparently at least one US Pubilnks champion, and one from New York City at that, agreed with me as seen in this 1925 snippet.... 

[Joe Bausch]

I just had this sneaky suspicion you might post part of that article Mike!   

[TEPaul]

I might predict that a few of our more expert researcher/analysts on here will conclude that Dick Walsh was either engaging in hyperbole or was simply mistaken for some reason. After all what would a former national public course champion really know about the architectural quality of a public municipal golf course?

[Mike Cirba]

I might predict that a few of our more expert researcher/analysts on here will conclude that Dick Walsh was either engaging in hyperbole or was simply mistaken for some reason. After all what would a former national public course champion really know about the architectural quality of a public municipal golf course?

My understanding is that publinx champion Dick Walsh's seemingly glowing comments about Cobb's Creek were actually part of a clandestine effort aimed at posthumously tarnshing the reputations of Wilson and Crump for their ill-advised involvement with that "amateurish" design.  

[TEPaul]

Perhaps. Or alternatively, one might conclude that since he says he's such an expert researcher/analyst/writer, Tom MacWood, despite never having even been to Cobb's Creek or even Philadelphia should logically have a lot better idea of its quality than a Publinx champion who played it back in that day such as Dick Walsh.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom MacWood's mention of golf pro Warren Webb on another thread brought to mind Webb's comments on Cobb's Creek.

[Tom MacWood]

At least we know it was better than Van Cortland Park, and it compared favorably with best in the district in 1916 (and the country)...whatever that means.

Never has so much effort been expended on trying to prove a course was at one time good.

[mike_malone]

 Tom,

  I really feel Cobbs is a perfect example where your ivory tower analysis falls woefully short.Those of us who have played it in its current routing find it quite good architecturally. When we learned of the original routing we imagine how challenging that would be for us and think it would be among the ultimate challenges in all of golf for its day. We don't need some paper or expert to prove this. All you have to do is play the course!

[Mike Cirba]

Tom MacWood,

You're the only one who ever questioned the quality of the architecture of Cobb's Creek, although similar to Seaview, once confronted with having to answer detailed architectural questions about the course rather than just casting general broadsides and aspersions and flurries of unrelated trivia from on high you grew strangely mute.  

No one who has ever played there or even walked the property has failed to appeciate what it could be, and our efforts have simply illustrated what it once was.

Of course, I can't think of anyone else who has never been there who would even venture to offer an unsolicited opinion, much less arrogantly claim that their involvement in the design tarnishes the reputations of George Crump and Hugh Wilson, but that certainly never stops you!  
 

[Kyle Harris]

No one who has ever played there or even walked the property has failed to appeciate what it could be, and our efforts have simply illustrated what it once was.

This is emphatically NOT TRUE, Mike.

[Mike Cirba]

Ok...let me rephrase that, Kyle...

Nobody who has ever played there, or even walked the property who has either an eye for, or an interest in golf course architecture, has failed to appreciate what it could be.

I think the term you used was "special", if memory serves.

[Kyle Harris]

Ok...let me rephrase that, Kyle...

Nobody who has ever played there, or even walked the property who has either an eye for, or an interest in golf course architecture, has failed to appreciate what it could be.

I think the term you used was "special", if memory serves.

Mike,

That's not true either. I've had active, working architects tell me there's nothing worth restoring there, in their opinion. And those opinions are ones I value - including that one.

They can participate here if they're willing.

To truly understand the genius, you must understand the detractors - not push them aside.

[Mike Cirba]

[
Mike,

That's not true either. I've had active, working architects tell me there's nothing worth restoring there, in their opinion. And those opinions are ones I value - including that one.

They can participate here if they're willing.

To truly understand the genius, you must understand the detractors - not push them aside.

Kyle,

Who are these supposed detractors?   Please tell me whose opinion I haven't sought or respected on this matter besides MacWood's usual antics, and please tell me who I'm "pushing aside"?

You've never mentioned this to me or anyone else associated with trying to get restoration done at Cobb's Creek.

You'd rather just air these unnamed detractors here in public than tell me about it in person or email although you see us reguarlly?

This has nothing to do with our not creating a Master Plan to do the restoration ourselves but instead deciding to get expert professional help, does it?  

How quickly did you want us to be laughed out of City Hall?

Sheesh....I give up.

[Kyle Harris]

[
Mike,

That's not true either. I've had active, working architects tell me there's nothing worth restoring there, in their opinion. And those opinions are ones I value - including that one.

They can participate here if they're willing.

To truly understand the genius, you must understand the detractors - not push them aside.

Kyle,

Who are these supposed detractors?   Please tell me whose opinion I haven't sought or respected on this matter besides MacWood's usual antics, and please tell me who I'm "pushing aside"?

You've never mentioned this to me or anyone else associated with trying to get restoration done at Cobb's Creek.

You'd rather just air these unnamed detractors here in public than tell me about it in person or email although you see us reguarlly?

This has nothing to do with you not creating a Master Plan to do the restoration yourself, does it?   

Sheesh....I give up.

Mike,

We've talked about this!! It has absolutely nothing to do with me.  You just can't go making a blanket statement about people's opinion on the golf course.

[Mike Cirba]

Kyle,

The good news for the unnamed "working architect" who sees no value in restoring Cobbs Creek is that no one is going to ask him to do it!  He can breathe easy! 

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,

The good news for the unnamed "working architect" who sees no value in restoring Cobbs Creek is that no one is going to ask him to do it!  He can breathe easy! 

I thought you weren't pushing those opinions aside...

[TEPaul]

Would it be potentially beneficial to have a master plan or two done for Cobbs Creek perhaps by professionals? Sure, why not? Of course there's always the question of who is going to ask for it or pay for it (assuming that's necessary). The only real difference I can see with a master plan for Cobbs Creek with any other master plan for all the clubs and courses I've been in some way involved with over the years is in the case of Cobbs Creek it doesn't appear the owners of the place are exactly actively or aggressively calling for it although one could certainly say they haven't actively discouraged such a thing either. I'm specifically talking about a Master Plan not necessarily a Master Plan restoration project.

The other big difference, at least to me, is all the other master plans and master plan projects I've ever had a thing to do with were for private clubs and courses. Cobbs Creek is the first one that's public that I've had anything at all to do with in any way at all. As such it certainly is different in numerous ways, at least to me. Essentially it seems far more complicated---eg far more diverse moving parts.

[Mike Cirba]

Kyle,

Your friend evidently doesn't think the course is worth restoring.   If that's his opinon fine, he's entitled to it.

A bunch of us don't agree with him.   What's to discuss?   Who has time to argue minutae?

Am I going to change his mind or is he going to change mine?   I don't think so.

I'm betting his first recommendation would be to dig up the push-up greens that have been there for nearly a century and replace them with USGA spec.

It's not a good match, no biggie.  


Tom Paul,

A professional Master Plan would simply be a way to get professional estimation of costs, of feasibility, of options, and to put that into something that could be used to market the idea, if it made sense and at that end of the day had perceived value to someone who might be a funding source.  

I'm certain it was done at other municipal restorations such as Breckenridge Park.   At the end of the day, to move forward you need to have a "product", and you need to know how much that product will cost, right?

Despite Kyle's assertions of professional working architects who don't think restoring Cobb's is worthwhile, some evidently do.

[Mark Molyneux]

Cobbs is a track with which I have some familiarity. I know the course and the neighborhood and the surrounding courses... and that cash cow driving range too. I'm also watching trends like First Tee as I'm concerned about growing the game. Cobbs has a huge history, not only as a product of Hugh Wilson's genius and generosity (Big question for the first tee at Cobbs is, "What other course on Cobbs Creek did this designer create?") but as a tournament venue and in particular as a site for numerous United Golf Association events, including the UGA National Championship. The UGA (think Bill Spiller, Charlie Sifford, and Ted Rhodes) was the African American pro golf circuit before the exclusionary PGA bylaw was repealed in the 1960s. I've always thought about how First Tee is a wonderful idea, growing the game in the inner city. What if First Tee and say a talented Tour player of color who could use a serious PR makeover got together to make Cobbs into a National Center, a UGA museum, a training ground for urban kids, and a city showpiece like Harding Park in Frisco, like Audubon in New Orleans, like Torrey Pines and The Black, like Brackenridge in San Antonio and Cedar Crest in Dallas? Cedar Crest is a great parallel circumstance, a very nice, Golden Age track, hardly in the best part of town, but an anchor for the community and a marvelous asset for the city. Cobbs could be all that and more! Forbidden Fairways (Sinnette, C.H., 1998) is very complimentary. So far as I'm concerned, James Finnegan sums it well in his Centennial Tribute to Golf In Philadelphia, in regards the current Cobbs (for the past 50+ years) design "... a genuinely worthy eighteen, especially when tackled from the blues..."

I read the Joe Logan piece. I know the course at 6660 yards and there are some quite memorable holes, among them the short fours at 3, 8, and 14. Three requires a lay up and a pitch to a narrow green, ably defended by the creek. Eight is a marvelously bunkered, 311 yard proposition, now having seen some of Mike Cirba's old photo file evidence of the original bunkerng, I can only hope to see it restored to those conditions. Fourteen dares the player to fade a tee ball around the corner of a tree line and a well struck shot could land on that green just 284 yards away. The best hole on the course (alternatively the hole that gets my shorts in a bunch quickest) is the fifth hole, advertised as a par 4 at 493 yards. In truth, it won't be a 493 yard hole until somebody pushes the tee back into the woods a bit and it may never be a par 4... four and a half maybe! Holes 9 through 13, which would seem to be 17, 7, 8, 9, and 11 in the original routing, are as solid a cluster of 21 strokes to par as there are anywhere in the section in a stretch of 5 holes. Those yardages run 449, 447, 393, 638, and 486! The problems at Cobbs include the wash outs along the creek after heavy rainfall, a couple blind shots, and the awkward green setting at #6 and that last problem might be remedied by reverting to specs and using the old par three that played into the current range area. Tom is correct in his listing of "better tracks in Philly circa 1916" but how fair is it to select five or six world-class clubs for purposes of comparing a municipal track?

I like Mike Sweeney's supposition that the Mayor must know how to go about fund raising since Nutter is a Jesuit educated kid. What if the Mayor, USGA, GCA, Chris Lange, and First Tee chased after Tiger with a proposition that could affect thousands of urban kids and vast numbers of players who share the idea of preserving the game's heritage and at the same time helping to grow the game properly? It would make for one hellaciously good piece of news at Aronomink this summer and it could help repair his image quite a bit.

[Mike Cirba]

Mark,

Just keep posting, man...keep posting!!   Hallelujah!!    

It's awesome to hear from someone who can see the whole forest and not miss it because he's looking at the root system of each tree. 

Now, we just need to get other voices of intelligence and reason like Peter Pallotta back on this site!  

[Mark Molyneux]

Mike-

I happen to be a Jesuit educated kid myself (same school as Nutter and Chris Lange) so perhaps, I ought to be better at fund raising. This whole exchange has gotten me to thinking that maybe it's not too absurd to actually send the mayor a proposal. What's the worst that can happen? He ignores it or sides with the guys who believe there's no gem out there in West Philly worth polishing? Maybe Joe Logan, Matt Ward, or Tony Leodora could provide some "push".

I've just seen too much great stuff in terms of municipal tracks in other cities. I didn't even mention Edinburgh USA, an absolutely fine RTJ golf course run by the Department of Rec outside of Minneapolis and I could've mentioned Melreese near Miami; not because it's a great course... maybe a 3 on the Doak scale... but because Tiger was there a day before me running a lesson for several hundred interested, urban kids.

Cobbs could be Philadelphia's Harding Park and Walnut Lane could be our Audubon. Maybe the school district even kicks in with an assist. The agricultural high school is about a mile up the road from Walnut Lane and they have a green complex that the kids study, on grounds at the school! There's a very good Bobby Weed track at Glen Mills School that's staffed largely with students from Glen Mills. I'm a school guy and a city resident so I call this a win-win either way but I believe the business school guys refer to it as "synergy".

[Tom MacWood]

Mark cited Harding Park, Audubon in New Orleans, Torrey Pines, The Black, Brackenridge in San Antonio and Cedar Crest in Dallas.

Which of these courses was actually worth restoring (and why)?

And how many of these courses were in actuality redesigned in the name of restoration?

[Mark Molyneux]

Tom-
I hope my reply isn't overly simplistic. Each of those courses has its place in the history of the game. Each of those courses has characteristics worth preserving, like museum pieces. Perhaps the most disappointing was Brackenridge because so much of the original had been lost to the highway encroachment but even Brackenridge had that "feel". I can't really quantify it but I've heard others express essentially my sentiment which runs along the lines of, "When I'm out there, I can almost hear the shouts and feel the crowds and sense what means the players had for overcoming the challenges set forth by the designer." I won't say that it's as profound as walking through Arlington or spending a day at Valley Forge (the national shrine not the golf course, which by the way got plowed under in 2008) but depending on your reverance for the game, it can be soul stirring. I think it was on GCA that I once read about how municipal tracks are windows on history. The toney private club can afford repeated redesigns and the power players on the committee have egos large enough to countermand some aspect that Donald Ross or Tilly or George Thomas thought was important enough to be a part of the design. Thankfully most munis don't have the ego investment or the capital to bury their roots. What you see at Cedar Crest is a damn sight closer to AWT's original idea than whatever you might see at Augusta National in relation to Alister Mackenzie's first thoughts. Courses evolve. I can accept that but certain things are just worth preserving.
The other point is that when I travel to other places to play, I do my homework. I might play the "best track in town". I might play the Doak track or the Nicklaus design. I might splurge and take in the Country Club for a day or play on the cheap if that's what's in the budget BUT before I go to any of those places for any of those reasons, I want to play someplace significant and each of the places I mentioned scores well on the significance scale.
Lastly but quite important is civic pride. We saw it on TV at Bethpage and Torry Pines and Harding Park but well before the Opens and the President's Cup, I saw it in the faces of the others (locals) in my foursome. I recall playing Port Royal in Bermuda with one of the officers of the club and she could not have been any more proud or any more eager to point out why things were the way they were. Philly has an art collection in that building at the top of Rocky Balboa's steps. We preserve and protect that collection and we are very fortunate to be able to visit and experience it directly. How many serious restorations are underway at the museum and how much justification should be required to restore a municipal asset that's been with us for nearly a century? That's what I'm talking about.