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Joe Bausch

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TMac,

Thanks for reposting all those pictures that I had put up almost 2 years ago.  It is wonderful to see them again.

Joe
-----------------
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Mike Cirba


Mike,

A sustainable maintenance program that solves the pertinent agronomic and management problems.

Kyle,

Since the decrepit single-row irrigation system dates from prior to the 50s, I would think a sustainable maintenance program would be an integral part of any restoration effort.   I don't see how they are separable components?   One certainly needs to know where the tees, fairways, and holes are going to be placed and then how to water and drain them to do it right, wouldn't they?

Tom MacWood,

Your latest post reminds me of an old girlfriend who saved all of the paraphenalia of our relationship and then as we were breaking up sent it all back to me in some effort to make the items appear cheap and tawdry.    :-\    I don't get it....are people supposed to look at that and say, "oh...I guess the course sucks from 1500 feet?"  ;)

What those aerials don't show and what only people who've actually been on the grounds understand is that the course uses "gravity" golf to provide considerable thought-provoking challenge throughout through the clever usage of natural landforms and features, as well as natural hazards such as the creek.   Throw in the fact that most of the greens are steeply sloped and others have significant internal contour and it becomes a mental examination as well as a physical one.

The property is considerably rolling, and exactly like Merion, the architectural intent at first was to wait a few seasons and observe play before deciding where to place most of the bunkers.   In fact, those few bunkers that were installed originally were almost all "saving" bunkers, that were placed to prevent a ball from rolling on and on down an embankment to an even more precarious position.  Also, just like Merion, there was concern that the number of new golfers the course helped to bring to the game would simply flail helplessly if the course became overly penal with the addition of scads of bunkers and other artificial hazards.

So it remains today...

Because, the fact is that Cobb's has never needed mass bunkering and that is one of its most distinctive charms.   Despite its modest length, and virtually non-existent bunkers, the course is exceedingly difficult.  

During the 1928 US Publinks, playing to a par of 71 at 6200 yards, only 8 men in the 136 man field broke 160 for two rounds, the medalist firing a 78 and 74 for a 152 total.    Over half the field didn't break 170.

In any case, a number of the pics you posted were from the Dallin Collection of the Hagley Museum, which is what led us to finally understand how the course had originally been routed, and started a number of us on a mission to recover what was lost over time.

So, although I'm sure your intent was to further your odd quest to besmirch the reputations of the amateur architects who built the great early courses in and around Philadelphia, I'm with Joe...it's great to see them anyway.

« Last Edit: January 15, 2010, 11:06:26 PM by Mike Cirba »

mike_malone

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 My favorite is the fifth picture with that huge fairway for #18. Someone who has never been there can't appreciate the slope in that fairway.
AKA Mayday

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0

Tom MacWood,

Your latest post reminds me of an old girlfriend who saved all of the paraphenalia of our relationship and then as we were breaking up sent it all back to me in some effort to make the items appear cheap and tawdry.    :-\    I don't get it....are people supposed to look at that and say, "oh...I guess the course sucks from 1500 feet?"  ;)

What those aerials don't show and what only people who've actually been on the grounds understand is that the course uses "gravity" golf to provide considerable thought-provoking challenge throughout through the clever usage of natural landforms and features, as well as natural hazards such as the creek.   Throw in the fact that most of the greens are steeply sloped and others have significant internal contour and it becomes a mental examination as well as a physical one.

The property is considerably rolling, and exactly like Merion, the architectural intent at first was to wait a few seasons and observe play before deciding where to place most of the bunkers.   In fact, those few bunkers that were installed originally were almost all "saving" bunkers, that were placed to prevent a ball from rolling on and on down an embankment to an even more precarious position.  Also, just like Merion, there was concern that the number of new golfers the course helped to bring to the game would simply flail helplessly if the course became overly penal with the addition of scads of bunkers and other artificial hazards.

So it remains today...

Because, the fact is that Cobb's has never needed mass bunkering and that is one of its most distinctive charms.   Despite its modest length, and virtually non-existent bunkers, the course is exceedingly difficult.  

During the 1928 US Publinks, playing to a par of 71 at 6200 yards, only 8 men in the 136 man field broke 160 for two rounds, the medalist firing a 78 and 74 for a 152 total.    Over half the field didn't break 170.

In any case, a number of the pics you posted were from the Dallin Collection of the Hagley Museum, which is what led us to finally understand how the course had originally been routed, and started a number of us on a mission to recover what was lost over time.

So, although I'm sure your intent was to further your odd quest to besmirch the reputations of the amateur architects who built the great early courses in and around Philadelphia, I'm with Joe...it's great to see them anyway.


Mike
That is an interesting reaction to a rather benign set of photographs....taken from your old thread. To be fair I could have posted photos of the holes that incorporates the creek...those are the most impressive pictures IMO. My initial reaction when I saw the photos I posted above was this does not look to be the work of very sophisticated or experienced architect....the greens and bunkering have an amateurish look to them. Would you not agree? Which goes back to my original question regarding the impact on their reputations.

I know the course was hit hard by flooding this past summer, have you been able to determine if that has been an issue over the years?
« Last Edit: January 16, 2010, 11:31:56 AM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

"Wilson and Crump have similar legacies and legends. Solo amateur architects who produced a single brilliant masterpiece with little or no outside help. Those legends have been held for several decades now. Recently we have learned Wilson did a little more than Merion, but for a very long time he was considered (like Crump) a one hit wonder.

Now we have their active involvement at Cobbs Creek during the same period approximately that they produced their well known masterpieces. Cobbs Creek was considered a very good design in Philadelphia and something quite a bit less nationally. Whatever your bias I don't think there is any arguement it was nowhere near the sophistication of Merion or PVGC. Based on that fact one has to wonder if the contributions of Macdonald, Whigham, Barker, Colt and Alison has been underestimated thus atlering our perception of these men."





Had Macdonald, Whigam, Barker, Colt and Alison ever deigned to contribute their design time and effort "pro bono publico" to the creation of an Amercian municipal public golf course as Crump and Wilson et al did with Cobb's Creek GC perhaps they too could have eventually enjoyed experiencing the underestimation of our perception of their reputations, legends and legacies as well.

Mike Cirba

As I mentioned last night, Cobb's Creek has always had very little bunkering.  There are NO fairway bunkers, and as mentioned, many of the greenside bunkers could best be described as "saving bunkers", placed on the low-side of holes to prevent balls from cascading far, far away from the elevated targets.  

Truly, one could remove every bunker on the golf course and it would become more, not less difficult.

The 1928/35 aerial collection we have shows the following totals;

1) Two saving bunkers right short of green to prevent balls from going OB over road immediately adjacent to green on right
2) Two bunkers short left, and one on each side of the elevated green, without which balls would roll a long way from the green on each side.
3) No bunkers
4) No bunkers
5) One bunker back right of green for shots bailing way out away from creek
6) One huge carry bunker on what had to be a herculean hole.   Shots could be played left around the bunker however, and even run on the green from that side.
7) One saving bunker behind green
8) No bunkers
9) No bunkers

10) One saving bunker behind green to prevent balls running down to what was the 14th fairway
11) One saving bunkers right of green and another left rear on the longish green
12) No bunkers
13) One saving bunker behind green to prevent balls running down to the 14th fairway.
14) One saving bunker back left to prevent balls from cascading down hill on left
15) A real "one off", on a course where most of the greens are "at level".   It's odd construction and large front and backing bunkers has led Geoff Walsh to nickname it the "Tie Fighter" green, and it bears resemblance to both the original Alpslike 10th at Merion and the original 12th at Garden City with huge mounding to each side of the green.   A few of us have speculated that this was perhaps Walter Travis's contribution to the design as we know he was involved in the latter months of construction, but again, this is purely specualative.
16) No bunkers
17) This hole, built in 1926 to replace the original 14th whose green was in Delaware county and the site of some dispute, features four bunkers around the green.   We don't believe the original 14th had any bunkers.
18) Two bunkers, one angled on the high left side which complicates the approach angle, and another on the lower far side, arguably there to prevent balls from running into Lansdowne Avenue.

PICS DELETED to save some space on Joe Bausch's server
« Last Edit: January 17, 2010, 07:04:03 PM by Mike Cirba »

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
 I never realized there were no fairway bunkers. I think that shows a very sophisticated use of the natural hazards; hills, slopes, and one meandering creek. I believe the creek on #1 and #2 is created.  I think it is hard to call the greens boring. Several are outstanding , usually just using the existing slopes.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2010, 09:27:58 PM by mike_malone »
AKA Mayday

Mike Cirba

PICS DELETED to save some room on Joe Bausch's server
« Last Edit: January 17, 2010, 07:04:40 PM by Mike Cirba »

Kyle Harris

Mike,

Did you get my voicemail? Are you available?

Mike Cirba

Hi Kyle,

Would love to, but did you hear the weather forecast?

Kyle Harris

Hi Kyle,

Would love to, but did you hear the weather forecast?

Rain for the morning. I'm banking on that scaring people away. Remember - I work in this stuff anyway!

Mike Cirba


Rain for the morning. I'm banking on that scaring people away. Remember - I work in this stuff anyway!

Let's keep an eye on it and play it by ear...hopefully we'll get some breaks in storm and get over there.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
I don't know who took this photograph, but who ever did produced one of the great pictures I've seen - the background, the foreground, the caddie, and the cop on horseback, it is a beautiful composition.

Mike
I'm surprised you did not address my questions.

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
I don't know who took this photograph, but who ever did produced one of the great pictures I've seen - the background, the foreground, the caddie, and the cop on horseback, it is a beautiful composition.

You should see how nicely that pic looks blown up and displayed on my man-cave wall.   ;D
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Mike Sweeney

The fifth hole pictured above used to come right in the middle of our 9 hole high school matches and basically it was huge for strategy of a  gross score (no match play) match. Along with the 18th at Yale, I don't I ever will figure out how to play the hole. It is a day to day decision based on wind and conditions.

You could often end up on the "wrong" side of the creek and depending on the lie, you would actually have a better angle into the green.

By the way Mike and Joe, if you want to get some local players who have pull with the GAP, you should approach Chris Lange. He was the golf coach at St Joe's Prep for a couple of years when his son(s) were there so I assume they still play their matches there. Lange probably was around Mayor Michael Nutter's class at The Prep........
« Last Edit: January 17, 2010, 08:24:32 AM by Mike Sweeney »

Mike Cirba

Tom MacWood,

I went back to see which questions of your's I haven't answered.  I thought I had, but see I didn't address your question about flooding.

Like most vintage courses of that era with creeks running through them, including Merion, the course at Cobb's has been susceptible to flooding during periods of hig, sustained rains.  As former farmlands and forests turned into paved shopping malls and university's over the past hundred years, this situation has been greatly exacerbated.

In a perfect world, any restoration of Cobb's Creek would address this issue, and I know some folks at Merion's greatest fear is torrential rains during the US Open,  much like we had last summer, so we had been hopeful that more might have transpired over the past few years that considered the Cobb's Creek waterway from a holistic standpoint.

You also asked a question about whether the features looked amateurish.   Rather than answer that question directly as I'm sure you and some others think I'm biased, I simply posted more pictures of the course, and particularly from the ground level, to let other's like you who haven't been there make up your own minds.   I think that's more fair.

Asked more broadly, though, I think the question of how we today view some of the architectural features built during say 1905-1916 (prior to WWI)  in this country is a very good one and probably worthy of its own thread.

Certainly it was a time of great experimentation and evolving tastes and architectural ideas.

For instance, how would you characterize the architectural features in the following pics....amateurish?

I have to run out but I'm thinking of a whole bunch more pics from this timeframe that we should look at as well at Garden City, Pinehurst, NGLA, Merion, Oakmont, Columbia et.al., because I think it's an awesome period in American golf yet it's also inarguable that it's a time when most of the architecture didn't look half as "natural" as what evolved in the following decade.




















Of course, Tom, you may also notice the irony above in that all of the photos in question are "amateurish" because they were all built by amateurs.

This first, is Charles Blair Macdonald's Lido.

The next two are Walter Travis's 12th at Garden City

The final is Travis (or Barker?), again, at Columbia.

And, just to show my lack of bias, the next is Hugh Wilson's original 9th green at Merion and...

The next three are Hugh Wlson's original 10th at Merion followed by Wilson's 5th at Seaview



The other irony is that i'm posting some of the more garish and obviously unnatural man-made features of the era, including the "tie-fighter" green on the original 15th at Cobb's Creek (today's 10th), yet virtually every other green at Cobb's Creek is extremely low-profile, and very integrated into the native surroundings, most just using the existing slopes of the land as their defense, as Mike Malone mentioned, and as seen in the following modern day photo.



« Last Edit: January 17, 2010, 01:08:58 PM by Mike Cirba »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0

For instance, how would you characterize the architectural features in the following pics....amateurish?



The punchbowl green at Lido hardly looks amateurish. The 12th at GCGC is one of the most interesting and unusual designs in the history of gca (IMO) - controversial, absolutely, unsophisticated and amateurish, no way. The 16th at Columbia was a copy of that hole and the picture taken was during construction, when completed the hole looked very much like the original. The Mid-Surrey mounding at Merion's 9th does look amateurish IMO, and I don't know anyone who recommend this hole be restored. The bunkering of the 9th at Merion in 1916 does not look amateurish to me. The bank behind the green in the next picture does look like the work of an inexperienced amateur. Its difficult to tell what is going on in the picture at Seaview, but based on what I can make out it looks fine to me.

Trying to compare these features to the very basic bunkering and amateurish greenside mounding at Cobbs Creek makes me start to wonder about your objectivity.

I'm glad you brought up those pictures of Seaview and Merion because those courses have a couple of things in common, both courses were built by Wilson and both were completely re-bunkered a couple of years after opening for play. Obviously there was some dissatisfaction with the original bunkering...would you agree? Based on the fact that bunkering evidently was not Wilson's strength early on, why would you expect Cobbs Creek to be the exception?

Back to my original question...do you think the bunkering in these pictures looks unsophisticated and a bit amateurish? The contrast with course across the street is stark IMO.

« Last Edit: January 18, 2010, 09:58:38 AM by Tom MacWood »

Mike Sweeney

Tom,

Your premise is making you look petty and yes amateurish in the new decade at GCA.com. Should we throw Tom Doak under the bus because his bunkering at CommonGround (his most recent opening I think) is not up to the same standards of his other courses?



Cobbs and CommonGround were built as municipal courses with municipal budgets and municipal maintenance standards.

This is where YOU need a moderator. I have always supported many of your questioning of standard beliefs, but this is silly. It is a muni course in West Philly, always has been always will be similar to CommonGround. Doak, Wilson and Crump were in a position in life to give something back, let's appreciate it for what it is rather than what it is not. Not every course needs to be a Top 50 on Matt's peg board.  :D

Mike Cirba


For instance, how would you characterize the architectural features in the following pics....amateurish?



The punchbowl green at Lido hardly looks amateurish. The 12th at GCGC is one of the most interesting and unusual designs in the history of gca (IMO) - controversial, absolutely, unsophisticated and amateurish, no way. The 16th at Columbia was a copy of that hole and the picture taken was during construction, when completed the hole looked very much like the original. The Mid-Surrey mounding at Merion's 9th does look amateurish IMO, and I don't know anyone who recommend this hole be restored. The bunkering of the 9th at Merion in 1916 does not look amateurish to me. The bank behind the green in the next picture does look like the work of an inexperienced amateur. Its difficult to tell what is going on in the picture at Seaview, but based on what I can make out it looks find to me.

Trying to compare these features to the very basic bunkering and amateurish greenside mounding at Cobbs Creek makes me start to wonder about your objectivity.

I'm glad you brought up those pictures of Seaview and Merion because those courses have a couple of things in common, both courses were built by Wilson and both were completely re-bunkered a couple of years after opening for play. Obviously there was some dissatisfaction with the original bunkering...would you agree? Based on the fact that bunkering evidently was not Wilson's strength early on, why would you expect Cobbs Creek to be the exception?

Back to my original question...do you think the bunkering in these pictures looks unsophisticated and a bit amateurish? The contrast with course across the street is stark IMO.



Tom,

Speaking of objectivity, your comments attempting to distinguish which pics above look amateurish and which do not speaks directly to your bias.

Your comments about "dissastisfaction with the bunkering" at all of Wilson's courses is also directly disputed by the historic record and both the intent and evolution of those courses.

I think the bunkering on the original 15th green (the tie-fighter) looks garishly over the top, as do the pics of the punchbowl of Lido, the 12th at Garden City, the hole at Columbia, and many other works of that time that tried much too hard to reproduce features from overseas where they occurred naturally onto much different type land and soils in the United States.  

And, as charming and anachronistic as those features are, and as much as I enjoy seeing them today and actually would recommend any and all of them be restored as part of capturing history, they all look very amateurish, Tom.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Tom,

Your premise is making you look petty and yes amateurish in the new decade at GCA.com. Should we throw Tom Doak under the bus because his bunkering at CommonGround (his most recent opening I think) is not up to the same standards of his other courses?

Cobbs and CommonGround were built as municipal courses with municipal budgets and municipal maintenance standards.

This is where YOU need a moderator. I have always supported many of your questioning of standard beliefs, but this is silly. It is a muni course in West Philly, always has been always will be similar to CommonGround. Doak, Wilson and Crump were in a position in life to give something back, let's appreciate it for what it is rather than what it is not. Not every course needs to be a Top 50 on Matt's peg board.  :D

I don't understand your comparison, the bunkering in your photograph looks nothing like Cobbs Creek. Since when has it become petty to question the architecture of any particular golf course?  

The fact that you percieve my posting of these old photos as some kind of unfair or unreasonable attack says all there needs to be said about your opinion of those bunkers.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2010, 09:59:19 AM by Tom MacWood »

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Cobb's Creek charges $20.00 to walk on weekdays and $25.00 to walk on the weekends.
With a cart those fees jump to $27.00 and $32.00, respectively.
Seniors get a $5.00 break on the weekdays.

On an earlier and more voluminous Cobb's thread there was speculation that a restovation plan would increase fees to $40.00, in essence doubling them, and there was the creation of a new category of fees for non 'locals' that was pegged at $65.00., something advocated on this thread, too.

Just how 'bad' is CC that it 'needs' to be restored for several million dollars? Does anyone believe that an influx of cash, even at the small end of what could be spent, is not going to precipitate a major increase in fees? Does anyone believe that the management company and the city is not going to raise rates on a restovated property? Why take away a reasonably priced outlet from the people in that area?  

    

  
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0

For instance, how would you characterize the architectural features in the following pics....amateurish?



The punchbowl green at Lido hardly looks amateurish. The 12th at GCGC is one of the most interesting and unusual designs in the history of gca (IMO) - controversial, absolutely, unsophisticated and amateurish, no way. The 16th at Columbia was a copy of that hole and the picture taken was during construction, when completed the hole looked very much like the original. The Mid-Surrey mounding at Merion's 9th does look amateurish IMO, and I don't know anyone who recommend this hole be restored. The bunkering of the 9th at Merion in 1916 does not look amateurish to me. The bank behind the green in the next picture does look like the work of an inexperienced amateur. Its difficult to tell what is going on in the picture at Seaview, but based on what I can make out it looks find to me.

Trying to compare these features to the very basic bunkering and amateurish greenside mounding at Cobbs Creek makes me start to wonder about your objectivity.

I'm glad you brought up those pictures of Seaview and Merion because those courses have a couple of things in common, both courses were built by Wilson and both were completely re-bunkered a couple of years after opening for play. Obviously there was some dissatisfaction with the original bunkering...would you agree? Based on the fact that bunkering evidently was not Wilson's strength early on, why would you expect Cobbs Creek to be the exception?

Back to my original question...do you think the bunkering in these pictures looks unsophisticated and a bit amateurish? The contrast with course across the street is stark IMO.



Tom,

Speaking of objectivity, your comments attempting to distinguish which pics above look amateurish and which do not speaks directly to your bias.

Your comments about "dissastisfaction with the bunkering" at all of Wilson's courses is also directly disputed by the historic record and both the intent and evolution of those courses.

I think the bunkering on the original 15th green (the tie-fighter) looks garishly over the top, as do the pics of the punchbowl of Lido, the 12th at Garden City, the hole at Columbia, and many other works of that time that tried much too hard to reproduce features from overseas where they occurred naturally onto much different type land and soils in the United States.  

And, as charming and anachronistic as those features are, and as much as I enjoy seeing them today and actually would recommend any and all of them be restored as part of capturing history, they all look very amateurish, Tom.

Charming and anachronistic? If Wilson's name was not associated with the course (and the bunkering) would you be recommending those bunkers be restored?

Is it true the courses at Merion and Seaview were rebunkered shortly after they were opened for play? Doesn't that say something about a dissatisfaction with the original bunkering?

Mike Sweeney

TomMac said: I don't understand your comparison, the bunkering in your photograph looks nothing like Cobbs Creek.

I agree. I wasn't comparing the bunkering. I was comparing the, relative to the times of the two courses, the budget and charter for the two projects by two well know architects of their respective times.

TomMac said: Since when has it become petty to question the architecture of any particular golf course?  

When your comparing apples and oranges just to get under the skin of Philly guys who are very well documented to have thin skin.  :D It has been very well documented by the guy here that has probably played Cobbs more than anyone here (me, but years ago) that it is probably a long shot that a fully restored course would be more than a Doak 6. I don't think anyone has said that Cobbs ever stood with Merion or Pine Valley. They had two completely different charters same as CommonGround, Sebonack and Pacific Dunes.

TomMac said: The fact that you percieve my posting of these old photos as some kind of unfair or unreasonable attack says all there needs to be said about your opinion of those bunkers.

I never stated an opinion about those bunkers. I only posted a picture of a bunker at CommonGround to show that GCA.com star Tom Doak has built simple bunkers long after he built some very sophisticated bunkers.

Tom,

Mike is not going to change his opinion and neither are you. We all get this, and if I was moderator, I would end it here. Maybe a little self-moderation would be a nice change of pace on these Philly threads.

Mike C,

Feel free to NOT respond to every poke by Tom Mac too.  8)

Cheers.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2010, 10:58:36 AM by Mike Sweeney »

Mike Sweeney


Just how 'bad' is CC that it 'needs' to be restored for several million dollars? Does anyone believe that an influx of cash, even at the small end of what could be spent, is not going to precipitate a major increase in fees? Does anyone believe that the management company and the city is not going to raise rates on a restovated property? Why take away a reasonably priced outlet from the people in that area?  
  

Jim,

In needs "gift" money for sure to really work as Mike C has stated. Where it actually gets interesting if if the Karakung course next to Cobbs could be better utilized. As it sits today, I would be interested what percentage of rounds are played by Philadelphians? Lots of Main Line guys play the course, and other than maybe a few paying City Wage taxes, they are not taxpayers.

I think similar to the courses in the Bronx, they could charge a premium to suburban and out of state players, and keep fees to Philadelphians the same.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2010, 11:00:25 AM by Mike Sweeney »

Mike Cirba

As regards the bunkering work done by Wilson in the first iterations of Merion, Cobb’s Creek, and Seaview, I’m not sure why Tom MacWood is ignoring what those who were there at the time wrote, but perhaps he can explain that.   I’m not sure how he explains that Merion became one of the best and most sophisticated examples of bunkering the world has even seen in the 9 years between 1915 and his death in 1924, but I’m sure he’ll find a way. ;)

Tilly wrote in the American Cricketer in Feb 1913:

"...Merion is at present in a very early stage; consequently we must regard it as the foundation from which there will gradually rise the structure of the builder's plans.   To attempt an analysis of some of the holes today would be manifestly unfair, fo rthey are not nearly so advanced as others, and yet some day the very holes which now are rather uninteresting and featurelss may be among the best of all."
 
..."Even after the course is thoroughly trapped it will be difficult to figure the part figures at more than 70, and yet few players will approach this score."
 
..."As I have said already, comparatively few traps have been placed.   The Committee wisely desires this to be the work of time.   The Mid-surrey scheme of grass hollows and mounts has been introduced in some places, although not to a considerable degree.   Every hazard is more or less experimental, and when the real digging is started, the pits and mounds will be sufficiently terrifying, I am told."
 
Alex Findlay wrote the following for a local paper in September 1912:
 
"There are a few nice water hazards, and also a few sand ones, but the placing of the mental hazards, etc., will be left until spring.    One can by that time find places wherein shots will lie, and place hazards accordingly."
 
And this from Far and Sure upon opening, published Februay 1913;
 
"It is too early to attempt an analytical criticism of the various holes for many of them are but rough drafts of the problems, conceived by the construction committee, headed by Mr. Hugh I. Wilson.   Mr. Wilson visited many prominent British courses last summer, searching for ideas, many of which have been used."

Now concerning Cobb's Creek, which was being built starting early 1915 and opened end of May 1916:
 
This from Verdant Greene of the Philly Inquirer, shortly before Cobb's Creek opened:
 
"...but with good weather, May 1 will see little more to be done except in the way of putting in traps and bunkers, a job likely to require two or three seasons.   As there are an abundance of natural hazards such as trees, water and boulders no one need worry over the lack of artificial embellishment thus far."
 
..."However, it is probably that some of the trees and stones will be eliminated to compensate for the pits and bunkers added.   Bothersome as some of them will prove, it was best that they should remain indefinitely, inasmuch as several months experience may be necessary to demonstrate beyond dispute just what hazards should be added and where."
 
Another article a month before CC opened said:
 
"Most of the trapping and pitting will go over til next year, as those in charge do not think it advisable to make the course too stiff a proposition in its early stages.  The rolling country which makes up the course and the fact that the creek guards quite a number of greens are sufficient at present to make the course difficult.   As hundreds of golfers who are just learning the game, not to mention other hundreds who will learn the game at Cobb's Creek will make up the bulk of the players, a too stiff course would hardly be suitable."
 
And one more:
 
"Very little bunkering has been done yet, and the course will not be made harder for a year or so, for those who laid it out realize that it will be played over by a host of persons who have never played golf before, and no effort will be made to make it too difficult for them until they have reached the point where their golf will admit of stiffer bunkering."

The same thing was true at Seaview.

I believe some thought the idea was to wait to decide where hazards were best placed after seeing a course in action.  And with Merion and CC, both after opening the amount of play they received was very high (Cobb's almost completely with beginners, but if you believe the first article above, Merion had plenty of newbies as well) and the natural hazards present made them plenty hard for the majority of the players.  And maybe this played a role in Merion appearing to be slow to add more bunkers.


But, for those like Tom MacWood who have never been to Cobb’s Creek, I thought perhaps this sampling of admittedly “amateurish” photographs taken on a dreary winter day might perhaps at least give some idea of the rolling property (although pictures really tend to "flatten" the features and these are no exception), the green placements, as well as the shaping of the man-made features and relatively few bunkers, most of which you can see serve as “saving” features.  







































































I thought it might be interesting for folks to also see the original 15th hole (today’s 10th), which originally had the one-off “tie fighter” green with large fronting and rear bunkers, and at one time evidently had large mounds to each side.  

My contention is that at the time they were built holes like this one, or the 12th at Garden City, were novelties even at that time, and were meant to create something discussion-worthy.  As you see, this was probably even referred to as some type of “Alps” or punchbowl replica.

The hole plays steeply uphill, and is just under 300 yards, par four.

From the tee, out of bounds is down the left and the property slopes steeply off to the right down into the woods on that side…



The hillside climb to the top of the hill..



Once reaching the crest, the old fronting bunker still provides a blind approach clearly meant to intimidate.



A long drive well up the right side might give a peek of the green for the approach.



Even with shrinkage, today’s green is still a larger (although sadly flatter) target than it appears from the fairway.



Looking back from behind the green towards the tee.




Jim Kennedy,

As I mentioned earlier, our intent would be to keep prices the same for city residents, less for juniors, and have a slightly higher surcharge for out-of-city residents.

Anything else would be outside the scope of what anyone wants to do.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2010, 11:41:11 AM by Mike Cirba »

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