[Mike Cirba]

I've been trying to explain to Tom MacWood about the architectural use of frightening "Natural Hazards" on Cobb's Creek to little avail.

Perhaps this summer 1916 article will help...

[Mike Cirba]

I have to add that given the foresight and civic-devotion of the leaders of the Golf Association of Philadelphia (GAP) back in the early days, I heard more than a few people at the GCA outing the other evening bemoan the seeming lack of interest from GAP at preserving/restoring what might arguably be its greatest treasure and legacy, especially as the eyes of the golf world will be on Philadelphia over the next four years.  

Given the paucity of courses designed by Hugh Wilson and George Crump in their too-brief lives, one has to wonder why there isn't more interest in honoring their gift to the game of golf and architectural work within their own hometown...

One almost feels compelled to fairly ask, "What would Robert Lesley do?"

I've been asked to explain more what I mean regarding the proper role of the Golf Association of Philadelphia (GAP) in the affairs of a municipal course owned by the city, and would certainly like to hear from others on the matter.

Cobb's Creek may be a unique situation in this regard, I'm not sure.  

The historical reality is that Cobb's Creek is the direct progeny of GAP and would never have been built without GAP.  

Through dogged, unyielding determination and wonderful foresight, GAP President Robert Lesley (Merion) and other leaders of the organization (a committee of prominent club presidents from Philmont, Philadelphia Country Club, Whitemarsh Valley, and Huntingdon Valley), pressed the city of Philadelphia relentlessly for years in person, and through the press for the formation of a golf course "for the people".  

Even as early as 1900 GAP put together a committee of prominent club men who had prior experience in golf course design/construction at their own clubs (Merion, Philadelphia Cricket, & Philadelphia Country Club) to work with the city to determine an appropriate site and layout for a public course.



Such vision and such practical egalitarianism was meant to help grow the game in this country, and in Philadelphia in particular, as well as to help Philadelphia become a competitive sporting mecca.  As the article that started this thread makes clear, these guys all did this voluntarily "for the love of the game".  

What is also interesting and possibly a bit unique is that the Golf Association of Philadelphia is one of the only USGA sections that actually uses the name of a city to identify itself.   However, one has to fairly wonder exactly what linkage exists today between GAP and the actual city of Philadelphia?   Instead, the history of the organization has been one dealing mostly with suburban private clubs and it has been only in recent years that a course/club which afforded public play of any sort could become a member of GAP.

So, there has been some recent and much-needed progress in this regard.   However, given demographics considerations, it seems to me that the only place that golf will be able to really grow in the future is through enhanced facilities near and within our largest metropolitan centers, and needs to appeal and be embraced by ethnic groups who have historically had limited access, interest, or financial wherewithal.  

It's sort of ironic in researching the history of golf in Philadelphia; at the time Cobb's Creek was built those ethnic groups were the Irish and Italian immigrant laborers who went on to win US Publinks tournaments like Joe Coble, or move out to the burbs and become the members of Llanerch and Edgmont.

Such outreach seems to me to be even more vitally imporant at this critical juncture for the game.   Within Philadelphia, with important tournaments in our immediate future, and a rich golf and architectural history that should be preserved and enhanced, I can't help but believe that the time for talking is over and the time for action is nigh....

So, I'm not sure today what Robert Lesley would do, but I have to think he'd be doing something.   So would the important clubs and memberships within GAP, if their incredible visionary histories are any indication.

I'll get off my soapbox now, but I would love to hear from others in terms of what they think can and should be done, especially those with examples of how regional golf organizations worked in partnership with civic and governmental leaders to achieve positive results for the game.

[Joe Bausch]

From this January 22, 1922 article is another mention of Wilson, Ab Smith, and Crump laying out Cobb's Creek.  And that GAP is the organization responsible for the course.

[Mike Cirba]

Joe,

Awesome article.

Knowing what incredible challenges Crump had going on at Pine Valley in 1914-16, it is all the more remarkable that he put time and effort into providing a golf course for the common man in Philadelphia.   

Wilson, as well...he had just designed and built both courses at Merion, designed and was involved in building Seaview, had worked on North Hills and significant revisions to Philmont...all in his spare time...such that by December of 1914 he resigned as the chairman of the Greens Committee at Merion citing the need to focus more time on is full-time job in insurance...only to one month later apparently volunteer to help design and build the public course at Cobb's Creek.   One article mentions that he devoted six months to the construction process while Ab Smith was there every Sunday to work on the course.

Amazing legacy...

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Mike,

What would Lesley do? He would get the leaders of the GAP clubs and the business leaders in the area to find ways to raise money to fund a restoration and sell  his plan to the City and Casper Golf.

He would be fearful of turning the course into a TPC Philadelphia.

[Mike Cirba]

Mike,

What would Lesley do? He would get the leaders of the GAP clubs and the business leaders in the area to find ways to raise money to fund a restoration and sell  his plan to the City and Casper Golf.

He would be fearful of turning the course into a TPC Philadelphia.

Steve,

I personally hope that can someday happen and believe that's exactly what Robert Lesley would do.  

It's been almost two years since Joe's historical findings were splashed across a full-page Sunday Sports Philly Inquirer story by Joe Logan.  Certainly, a lot of individual folks have expressed interest in helping however they can, but it needs more organizational leadership and direct involvement from the city's prominent golf organizations, clubs, and rank-and-file membership than our ragtag group of grassroots public course activists can provide.

I sometimes think the best we can do is throw a pebble at their window and hope to awaken them, I guess...

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Mike,

Or we could buy a Powerball ticket.

[Mike Cirba]

Mike,

Or we could buy a Powerball ticket.

The funny thing is, when all is said and done, I really don't think we're talking about some inordinate amount of money.

While cash is certainly needed, I'm fairly certain that's not the primary thing that's missing at present.

[Mike Sweeney]

Mike,

Or we could buy a Powerball ticket.

The funny thing is, when all is said and done, I really don't think we're talking about some inordinate amount of money.

While cash is certainly needed, I'm fairly certain that's not the primary thing that's missing at present.

Mike,

I am not sure who you have talked to politically, but I think you have to be realistic that Mayor Michael Nutter and whoever runs his old District 4 (I think) where Cobbs is located is not going to do this unless you can generate Bethpage type of money. BB is a huge money winner for NY State, and they did not have to put in a dime. Nutter seems like a good guy, but I can tell you the Jesuits at St Joe's Prep trained him how to collect donations!

I also think you need to get the buy in of the people who actually play the course rather than a bunch of private course guys from the burbs who run GAP. I would start here:

http://www.phillypublinks.com/

[Tom MacWood]

Does Wilson and Crump's involvement in Cobbs Creek enhance or tarnish their reputations?

[Mike Sweeney]

Does Wilson and Crump's involvement in Cobbs Creek enhance or tarnish their reputations?

Architecturally, the only issues with old and new Cobbs is the holes that run along Cobbs Creek do on occasion wash out. I think the 3rd green washed out last summer. There are a bunch of Old Dead Guy architects that had bigger problems with drainage (Yale 10, 18, 7 - now fixed: The Creek's holes along The Sound; (not dead yet Coore and Crenshaw at FH 6, 7 and 8 area ............). It's moving nature around and it happens.

The Cobbs course is good today with the potential to be very good, just not "great" as defined by Wardish type raters IMO. The land tends to be hilly rather than rolling similar to Sugarloaf in Florida. I would guess that it would have Bethpage Red type of status if it had been left alone.

[Mike Cirba]

Does Wilson and Crump's involvement in Cobbs Creek enhance or tarnish their reputations?

Tom,

Oh, it tarnishes them scandalously of course.  

They have never quite gotten over the scores of complimentary contemporaneous reviews of their work or the gratitude of the tens of thousands who lined up for hours to play the course each year after inception.   What's more, they had to deal with all of the licensious local reporters making up glowing fairy tales about their architectural responsibility for Merion and Pine Valley, if you can imagine the collective civic outrage!    

That was then followed by the unspeakable blight and shame of hosting the 1928 US Publinx tournament, and then the 1955 and 1956 Daily News Open on the PGA Tour, hosting Arnie, Casper, Middlecoff, et.al.  

I'm sure you can only imagine how all of that indelibly sullied their already disgraced reputations.  

In this town, we normally only mention those names in very, very hushed tones.    

Mike Sweeney,

The local publinks guys are very supportive and we've had them over to Misson Control for a meeting last year.   Agree with your general premise that there are a lot of moving parts to this picture, but ultimately we need this to be done with private funding.

Did you read my Muccian blue response to your friends concerns the other day?  

[Mike Sweeney]

Did you read my Muccian blue response to your friends concerns the other day?  

More importantly, my friend saw it and he thinks your are nuts.  I think he said in George Costanza style, "Jerry, those were the guys hitting balls in the woods one December day trying to simulate shots from the old course in the freezing cold! In the woods Jerry! Those guys are nuts!"

He does wish you well and hopes for your success. 

[Mike Cirba]

Mike,

I plead nolo contendre!

Too funny!!!

[Tom MacWood]

Wilson and Crump have similar legacies and legends. Solo amateur architects who produced a single brilliant masterpiece with little or no outside help. Those legends have been held for several decades now. Recently we have learned Wilson did a little more than Merion, but for a very long time he was considered (like Crump) a one hit wonder.

Now we have their active involvement at Cobbs Creek during the same period approximately that they produced their well known masterpieces. Cobbs Creek was considered a very good design in Philadelphia and something quite a bit less nationally. Whatever your bias I don't think there is any arguement it was nowhere near the sophistication of Merion or PVGC. Based on that fact one has to wonder if the contributions of Macdonald, Whigham, Barker, Colt and Alison has been underestimated thus atlering our perception of these men.

[Joe Bausch]

Well it sure is nice to see we are back 'on topic'. 

[mike_malone]

Whatever your bias I don't think there is any arguement it was nowhere near the sophistication of Merion or PVGC. Tom MacWood's post.

    What do you mean? How does one measure " nowhere near" ? What does "sophistication" mean as it relates to design?

     If you mean "finished" I would agree. But, if you saw the uniqueness of #5 or #11 (original par 5) , to name just two holes , you would see them as quite sophisticated as to design.

   No one involved with Cobbs back then needs to worry about their design reputation.

[Mike Cirba]

Wilson and Crump have similar legacies and legends. Solo amateur architects who produced a single brilliant masterpiece with little or no outside help. Those legends have been held for several decades now. Recently we have learned Wilson did a little more than Merion, but for a very long time he was considered (like Crump) a one hit wonder.

Now we have their active involvement at Cobbs Creek during the same period approximately that they produced their well known masterpieces. Cobbs Creek was considered a very good design in Philadelphia and something quite a bit less nationally. Whatever your bias I don't think there is any arguement it was nowhere near the sophistication of Merion or PVGC. Based on that fact one has to wonder if the contributions of Macdonald, Whigham, Barker, Colt and Alison has been underestimated thus atlering our perception of these men.

Tom,

Is there a sincere, non-rhetorical question for anyone in there or are you just hurling another thinly-veiled polemical brickbat?

I love your research Tom, and your devotion to it, but I'm not going to waste my time explaining the difference between richly-funded private courses where Wilson and Crump spent 13 and 5 years respectively on the ground perfecting versus a "free" course they volunteered to design and layout for the city over the course of 6-12 months if it isn't already self-evident to you.   If you insist that their reputations were unjustly deserved due to the influence of one-day visitors who came through town over the years who offered advice, then you have the right to that belief.

Whatever your bias, or the reasons for it, I think it's affecting your ability to objectively analyze the work of these men and perhaps we should keep our conversations to other more productive topics.  

Those who have seen or played Cobb's Creek and know the potential and value of recapturing the original design would rather keep to the topic.

[Kyle Harris]

Does Wilson and Crump's involvement in Cobbs Creek enhance or tarnish their reputations?

That was then followed by the unspeakable blight and shame of hosting the 1928 US Publinx tournament, and then the 1955 and 1956 Daily News Open on the PGA Tour, hosting Arnie, Casper, Middlecoff, et.al.  

A distinction held by a couple hundred other courses. By this logic - Center Square is a great course. It's hosted two Women's Publinks.

Mike C.,

It's not that I think you're wrong - I just don't think you can prove you're right.

Tom MacWood,

It's not that I think you're wrong - I just don't think you can prove you're right.

[Mike Cirba]

Kyle,

I'm not trying to prove anything.   

Tom setup a strawman he's now attempting to set fire to and it's up to him to prove his case or not.   Frankly, I don't see a spark, much less any light shed.

Instead of your somewhat obtuse response, why not lend us the value of your own direct opinion.

You've played Cobb's many times and walked the property even more.

How's the architecture?   What's your opinion of the original routing?

Do you think it diminishes the reputations of Crump and Wilson?

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,

I'm not trying to prove anything.  

Tom setup a strawman he's now attempting to set fire to and it's up to him to prove his case or not.   Frankly, I don't see a spark, much less any light shed.

Instead of your somewhat obtuse response, why not lend us the value of your own direct opinion.

You've played Cobb's many times and walked the property even more.

How's the architecture?   What's your opinion of the original routing?

Do you think it diminishes the reputations of Crump and Wilson?

Mike,

And your leading him off with Red Herrings about tournaments and local newspaper articles. That's what I'm driving at - there will be fallacious and specious reasoning on both sides in the absence of proof.

It's a fine golf course now, and would be a fine golf course if restored properly. But the architectural restoration is (and should be) low on the priority list until a few other things fall into line first.

Cast not your pearls before swine.

That being said, I have access to a transit and level - how about we head out to Cobb's on Sunday and shoot some green elevations?

[Mike Cirba]

Kyle,

"Lead him off"?  I posted news articles proving Crump's involvement.

Tom is the one who asked if it diminishes his rep.

What steps do you believe should proceed any attempts at restoration?

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,

"Lead him off"?  I posted news articles proving Crump's involvement.

Tom is the one who asked if it diminishes his rep.

What steps do you believe should proceed any attempts at restoration?

Mike,

A sustainable maintenance program that solves the pertinent agronomic and management problems.

[Mike Sweeney]

Now we have their active involvement at Cobbs Creek during the same period approximately that they produced their well known masterpieces. Cobbs Creek was considered a very good design in Philadelphia and something quite a bit less nationally. Whatever your bias I don't think there is any arguement it was nowhere near the sophistication of Merion or PVGC. Based on that fact one has to wonder if the contributions of Macdonald, Whigham, Barker, Colt and Alison has been underestimated thus atlering our perception of these men.

Actually, I think it enhances their reputations. The collaborations at Pine Valley and Merion that have been argued about here seem to be similar to what is going on out at Old Macdonald. There seems to be a genuine collaboration out there and from pictures it looks spectacular. Mike Keiser seems to have a special gift for:

1. Creating a vision;
2. Creating a team to execute that vision; (Anybody think Doak is a piece of cake to handle?  )
3. Executing on that vision, which is still to be determined at Old Mac but looks like it has all the pieces.

Thus, I think Wilson and to a larger extent Crump do not get enough credit for being developers of the courses and clubs. I say Crump to a larger extent since he had to fund Pine Valley too.

[Tom MacWood]

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