[Jeffrey Stein]

Old Mac is three winters in the making now and will definately stir the discussion of which is the best course at Bandon Dunes.  I have had the privelege to work on phase II of constrcution and live in Bandon for a 10 month span.  In my estimation I have played over 70 rounds during that period, with a bias toward Pac, and Trails.  As a golfer, working at Bandon Dunes has got to be the best job in the business! 

As for the best Renaissance par 5, what about 15 at Pac, this is one of the best strategy par 5's I have seen at any golf course.  17 will will prove itself in less than 1 season as I'm sure many will rave, however OM is quite special for its 4 1/2 par holes : 4,10,11,16!!!   

I have felt great freedom while walking those links without a yardage, without a par, and without a care in the world.  It wont matter anyway if the wind is blowing....   

[Jeff Doerr]

Thanks Kevin! I hope to get out there this spring for a visit just to see it.

[Brad Kane]

Kevin,

thanks for the excellent photos and tour of OM.  We had the chance to play 10 of the holes prior to opening last year, really neat to see how they all link together now.  The "ocean" hole is really fun to play, the environment change from the quiet lower fairway to the perched green with wind and ocean noise, the intensity of the hole is elevated with the same slope as the fairway up to that green.

Cheers,
Brad.

[Kevin Pallier]

Kevin,

  Thanks for posting.  Looks great and I'm willing to bet the pictures don't do it justice.

  I wish you had seen that other Doak course that was under a foot of snow so we could hear your thoughts comparing the two.

  It's killing me to not currently have this course on the agenda for 2010.

Jim

It wasn't the best day for photos unfortunately so I apologise that my skills dont do it justice.

It was the only regret of my trip not seeing Ballyneal in all it's golfing glory.....one-day maybe 

I'm sure you'll enjoy OM when you get to see it.

Leaving aside the "templete" theme of the course, what aspects of the course stand out? Is it the internal countours on the large greens (which BTW look amazing!) or the need to position yourself correctly for the approach shots.

Donal

Four aspects stood out for me:
1. the mostly wide entrances to the greens
2. size of the greens themselves and the internal contours
3. the many fallaways and in particular elevation rises to the greens eg: false fronts
4. the relatively wide fairways which will make an interesting combination with the pin placements on the greens

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kevin,

Thanks for the pictures.

I've always thought that Bandon was an almost perfect destination for American golfers.

No need to change currency, get a passport, worry about flights home, AND, you have four DIVERSE, QUALITY golf courses at your disposal with good accomodations to boot.

Why wouldn't a golfer want to spend a few days at Bandon ?

[Ross Waldorf]

Kevin (or any other person who can help):

I'm trying to get a better sense of what's happening with the 17th -- any additional commentary would be appreciated. Is that first image taken from the tee? What are the approximate distances to the various fairway areas in the photo? This hole looks extremely interesting, and I was trying to figure out where one might try to place his shots while navigating the hole. I have a general idea of what Macdonald's Channel hole looked like at Lido, and I've been looking at your pictures with interest and trying to lay the two holes on top of one another to get a sense of strategy.

Anyway -- whatever commentary anybody would like to supply would be of interest to me. Thanks.
R

[Kevin Pallier]

Ross

Great point and I should have elaborated re: the derivation of first pic. of the 17th hole. It is not of the drive - it is a picture taken from the ridge that is in play on the 3rd / greensite of the 14th looking down on the fairways of 17th.

The 17th tee area is off the the left of the 16th and can be seen in the last photo re: the 17th looking back up the fairway on the right hand side of it.

Let me know if this makes sense - otherwise I will try and add the tee shot photo.

[Reef Wilson]

Drive with ridge

Love this tree! However, it doesn't look very lively. Hopefully it will last for a while? Most of the trees around there are evergreens I believe and I don't recall seeing too many without any greenery on them even in the dead of winter.

Kevin, when was your visit? Thanks for sharing these pics! My upcoming visit is too Bandon is too early so I will have to live through these and a walk around the course if I have the time.

Thanks,
Reef

[Ross Waldorf]

Kevin -- I had a feeling we were looking at the hole from up above and to the right, so your comments make sense. No need to upload a tee shot photo (unless you really feel like it -- I'm sure none of us would object in that case!). It really does sound like a fascinating hole. I like your shot from the fairway looking at the green. Thanks.
R

[George_Bahto]

17 Old Macdonald

This is from the basic routing drawing we worked with - obviously there were modifications in the field but this should give you a rough idea. We agonized a lot hoping to make this work properly - so everyone doesn't take the same route all the time

the route to the right is the risk-route, the green reachable in 2 but the carry off the tee is very long ....... the fairway to the left will leave most golfers with a 3-shot hole, mainly because of the cavernous, sleepered bunker fronting the green - your third shot will be blind to the green

[Ross Waldorf]

George:

Thanks so much for the routing plan. This is why I am such a fan of this web site. It's really wonderful to ask a question and then have an architectural drawing uploaded as an answer to the question from one of the people who helped design the hole. I so appreciate that, George. And it looks like you've created a rather amazing golf course in Oregon -- I look forward to playing it in September.

Speaking specifically to 17, from the pictures it does look like you were able to do what you intended as far as giving players a real option. Seems like the use of the basic Lido strategy but without the actual channel (which would seem more aggressively penal) makes trying the more dangerous route more tempting. I'm not a particularly long hitter by today's standards, but playing downwind I could imagine the right hand route looking rather inviting -- especially since I'll have multiple rounds on the course. For example, even though a 200 or 220 yard carry isn't something I take lightly in calm conditions, when I play Bandon Dunes no. 16 with the summer wind, I'll sometimes try the very aggressive play more toward the green. It's fun to try, and I've pulled the shot off (sometimes).

Anyway -- I really like the look of that hole from what I see in the pictures Kevin posted. Thanks again.
R

[Tom_Doak]

George:

I played the 17th hole a couple of times last fall with a good tailwind, and was surprised how easy it was to get over to the right fairway area ... I almost went through the fairway on one occasion, and had a good chance to knock it on the green both times.  [One ended happily, the other I topped my second shot with a borrowed hybrid club.]  I was not playing all the way back [seldom do] but I thought the angle from that tee made it hard to stay in the right fairway, so Jim has built a new back tee further to the left.

I suspect the hole is quite a bit easier than the original Channel hole at Lido, but you still have to hit a solid and big tee shot to go right, and those who do will really enjoy it a lot.

[Alex Miller]

Tom,

How long is it? I have it in the Fantasy Course draft and would love a complete scorecard for my course. 

[George_Bahto]

One of the neatest inclusions in the Old Macdonald routing by Tom and Jim(bo) is that there are so many holes played in different directions, so you have all these downwind, into the wind and so many variations of crosswinds - all this changing throughout the year.

What you have on one visit (or one day) will probably be different next time around.

This was one of the reasons for that huge green on the Short hole, #5. I’m waiting to see players playing that hole with a severe right pin placement with the “normal” right to left 3-club wind - good luck.

This course and what led up to the building of it, the strong winds, rain, the tight lies short over and to the sides of the greens (where you should probably leave you wedge game in the bag) has really changed my outlook on golf.

Add to that the preliminary trip suggested by Mike to revisit what Macdonald took as his inspiration holes was very enlightening to me  -   unfortunately, (unlike many of you) I had not been to Scotland before and that trip with Tom was a highlight.

[Steve Lang]

   That lone tree on the ridge looks like the old Hangman's Tree at the 16th green at Oak Tree.. last i saw it, they had it held up by cement! 

WWOMD with it?

[Michael Moore]

Is that sprinkler head in the close-up of the eighth green?

If so, is it on the green or the fairway?

We have two sprinkler heads embedded in the Riverside Municipal greens. I have never seen one hit on the fly, but I have to admit that I am curious.

[Ross Waldorf]

Tom:

Thanks for the additional playing info. I was curious as to your reaction when you discovered that the carry to the right side was easier than you expected. I like the description you gave: "I suspect the hole is quite a bit easier than the original Channel hole at Lido, but you still have to hit a solid and big tee shot to go right, and those who do will really enjoy it a lot." That sounds like a hole I'd really like to play.

I'm sure the Channel hole at Lido was amazing, and I wish I could have had a crack at it. But from the drawings and photos I've seen, I suspect that (other than for the sheer thrill of it) I would have attempted the carry maybe 1 out of 10 times. Too tough a shot for me.

Do you have an overall philosophy about this kind of risk/reward hole as to how difficult the tougher carry should be? How often would an average player be expected to pull that shot off in an ideal world (from the right tees, obviously)? If your aim as an architect leans toward creating a fun hole, presumably it would be doable more often than if you're primarily trying to go for a stern test. How do you balance those variables? Or how did you and Jim (and your other colleagues) think about it in this case?

Cheers,
R

[Joe Bentham]

One of the neatest inclusions in the Old Macdonald routing by Tom and Jim(bo) is that there are so many holes played in different directions, unlike most of the other hoes at Bandon, so you have all these downwind, into the wind and so many variations of crosswinds - all this changing throughout the year.
What you have on one visit (or one day) will probably be different next time around.

George
Bandon Dunes, Pacific Dunes and Bandon Trails all have holes that will be downwind, crosswind and into the wind regardless of wind direction.  I don't thinks it fair to say that Old Macdonald is the first course at Bandon to play in different directions to utilize the wind, it would be insulting to the other courses and those who worked on them.
As for playing holes in different wind conditions, well there is a weird little deal that happens here in Bandon.  Our wind is almost always from a predominate direction.  Summertime winds come from the North, northeast.  Wintertime winds come from the south, southwest.  If the wind isn't blowing from the north in the Summer, it isn't windy.  Same goes for the winter, it it isn't blowing from the south, it isn't windy.  So guests that come in the winter are always surprised when I tell them that #16 at Bandon is a big downwind shot in the summer.  Or the guys that come in the summer can't imagine playing #4 at Pacific into the wind.  And really return guests come about the same time of year, summer guys are summer guys, winter guys are winter guys.

[Tony Weiler]

Joe, what about Fall and Spring?  Or don't you have those seasons in Oregon?   

[Joe Bentham]

Joe, what about Fall and Spring?  Or don't you have those seasons in Oregon?   

Tony

Your right.  Summertime and Wintertime aren't the right terms.  I guess its more like 8 months from the north, 4 months from the south.  And by no means am I saying we don't get the occasionally west wind or the very rare east wind.  but 90% of windy days you now what directions the wind is coming from based on what time of year it is.

[Tim Bert]

Question for those that have played both holes...  How similar is the 3rd at OM to the 9th at Pacific Dunes (when playing the lower green.)

The first two pictures look remarkably similar - big ridge that makes the fairway blind and makes the carry tougher the farther left you go.  Potentially ability to drive the green in the right conditions.  Looks like a generous fairway that tumbles downhill and also has a little of a collecting aspect to it.  The 9th at Pacific is popped in my head as soon as I saw these photos and I can't shake it.

I realize that pictures don't tell the entire story, which is why I am asking.  You can also bet I'll be following up with my own opinion in June.

[Tom_Doak]

Tim:

The two holes are very different.  At Pacific Dunes, you either hit a fade to try to stay up on the plateau (if you are playing the right green) or a big draw to try and maximize distance (if you are playing the left).

On the 3rd at Old Macdonald, the tilt of the ground on the far side of the ridge is the other way around -- if you stay left your ball will stay up on top, with a severely downhill approach, and if you go right you get down to the bottom and may have a semi-blind approach.  The tee shot is also MUCH more uphill than the 9th at Pacific, and there is a not-so-small tree in the way.

[Tim Bert]

Tim:

The two holes are very different.  At Pacific Dunes, you either hit a fade to try to stay up on the plateau (if you are playing the right green) or a big draw to try and maximize distance (if you are playing the left).

On the 3rd at Old Macdonald, the tilt of the ground on the far side of the ridge is the other way around -- if you stay left your ball will stay up on top, with a severely downhill approach, and if you go right you get down to the bottom and may have a semi-blind approach.  The tee shot is also MUCH more uphill than the 9th at Pacific, and there is a not-so-small tree in the way.

Thanks for the comparison.

Will that tree have leaves in the summer, or is it an "old, dead tree?"  Looks kind of old and dead, but just wondering.

[Kevin Pallier]

I've always thought that Bandon was an almost perfect destination for American golfers.

No need to change currency, get a passport, worry about flights home, AND, you have four DIVERSE, QUALITY golf courses at your disposal with good accomodations to boot.

Why wouldn't a golfer want to spend a few days at Bandon ?

Patrick

Two factors I would hazard a guess for mine are the logistics and cost. Each to their own of course but 4 games of golf plus at least 3 nights accomodation & food - one wouldn't have much change from say $2,000.

Another that I would suggest causes some issues is that it isn't really a "family orientated" golf resort. I tend to take my wife and young kids away with me on my holidays and golfing sojourns. Bandon seemed limited in that regard but caters rather well instead to serious golfers.

[Alex Miller]

I've always thought that Bandon was an almost perfect destination for American golfers.

No need to change currency, get a passport, worry about flights home, AND, you have four DIVERSE, QUALITY golf courses at your disposal with good accomodations to boot.

Why wouldn't a golfer want to spend a few days at Bandon ?

Patrick

Two factors I would hazard a guess for mine are the logistics and cost. Each to their own of course but 4 games of golf plus at least 3 nights accomodation & food - one wouldn't have much change from say $2,000.

Another that I would suggest causes some issues is that it isn't really a "family orientated" golf resort. I tend to take my wife and young kids away with me on my holidays and golfing sojourns. Bandon seemed limited in that regard but caters rather well instead to serious golfers.

Perhaps the proposed par 3 and 9 hole courses are the beginning of an appeal for family trips and the less-serious golfer?

I think the serious golfers will enjoy them as well. 


The fact is that with the quality of the courses there, they could charge even more and it would be tough to argue against it.

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