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Troy Alderson

Re: The New Course. Tour with photo's
« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2010, 10:47:46 AM »
Hi Tony,

As I was scrolling through your pictures, the one thing that kept popping into my thick skull is how unkempt the golf course looks.  Fantastic!  You can just see through the pictures how "little" maintenance goes into a golf course on the other side of the pond.  The USA is just starting to realize that golf courses do not have to be high maintenance tracks.  And yet, golf courses there are under fire from environmental groups also and they do not use a tick of inputs that USA courses do.

I also noticed some really tight pin placements, that golfers here would complain over.  Either tight to the edge of the green or close to wild undulations.  I was looking at the mowing lines of the "through the greens" and how it compares to our typical courses.  I see some rough cut, but mostly short cut grass from tee to green and around the green.  I like the thriftyness of the golf course accessories, they look hand made from the maintenance building.

Some day I will be there.

Troy

Brian Phillips

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Re: The New Course. Tour with photo's
« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2010, 12:45:31 PM »
Troy,

If you think that is unkept then you need to play the rest of Scotland or Britain for that matter!  All the courses at St.Andrews are pretty WELL kept in relation to the rest of the links in Scotland.   ;D
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re: The New Course. Tour with photo's
« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2010, 01:14:25 PM »
Tony, Thanks for these pictures and the affectionate right-up. My few friends in St Andrews always reckoned that TNC played harder than TOC from the everyday tees. It's many years since I played it - even longer since the Eden and Jubilee (both pre-alterations) - but I can remember the individual holes and features of the old Eden far better than the New. As you say, the New is a very difficult couirse to photograph - it's so flat and lacking in those big visual features that a camera might pick up at 250 yards' range. Perhaps that is why it is difficult to remember. Anyway, your pictures and descriptions will help enormously.

Bill_McBride

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Re: The New Course. Tour with photo's
« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2010, 01:31:30 PM »
Troy,

If you think that is unkept then you need to play the rest of Scotland or Britain for that matter!  All the courses at St.Andrews are pretty WELL kept in relation to the rest of the links in Scotland.   ;D

Maybe "unpretentiously unkempt" would be the right phrase!

I think Fife runs that way in general.  I love the understated look at Lundin Links and Elie and Crail too.  Nothing fancy but properly maintained in the important places.

Brian Freeman

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Re: The New Course. Tour with photo's
« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2010, 01:38:40 PM »
Thanks for posting - playing the New & Jubilee in late June (TOC is already closed then for the Open) and was still a little concerned to date as these are the first detailed hole images I've been able to find!  Looks like some very nice green sites - enough to make it an interesting challenge.  And the 9th hole looks especially interesting.

Certainly better than anything I play in the States on a regular basis.  :)

Troy Alderson

Re: The New Course. Tour with photo's
« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2010, 02:34:07 PM »
Troy,

If you think that is unkept then you need to play the rest of Scotland or Britain for that matter!  All the courses at St.Andrews are pretty WELL kept in relation to the rest of the links in Scotland.   ;D

Hi Brian,

I use the term "unkempt" loosely, I know there is a lot of maintenance going on there and like Bill said, the maintenance is in the right places.  I prefer golf courses that appear as natural as possible.  Like the layout was there and all that was done was cut the turf short.  Here in the PNW, we call it Pasture Golf.  But, I like pretty much any golf course, especially the one I am working at and playing at the time.

Troy

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The New Course. Tour with photo's
« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2010, 02:46:05 PM »
Troy,

If you think that is unkept then you need to play the rest of Scotland or Britain for that matter!  All the courses at St.Andrews are pretty WELL kept in relation to the rest of the links in Scotland.   ;D

Maybe "unpretentiously unkempt" would be the right phrase!

I think Fife runs that way in general.  I love the understated look at Lundin Links and Elie and Crail too.  Nothing fancy but properly maintained in the important places.

Bill

I like to term that it as being scruffy round the edges but I like your comment equally "properly maintained in the important places".

Tony, well done with the photos, any more to come ?

Niall

Bradley Anderson

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Re: The New Course. Tour with photo's
« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2010, 03:36:00 PM »
The astro-turf cart paths are kinda cool, but man it sure could use some fertilizer to green it up a little couldn't it?

Tony_Muldoon

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Re: The New Course. Tour with photo's
« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2010, 03:54:15 PM »

16 on paper this looks like several of the others 431 yards long with a rumpled fairway and an oval green, but you never got that feeling playing it.





17 Simple but effective (sums up the course really).  229 yards




18.  408 yards with some big ridges in the green.  A good finishing hole.




Let's make GCA grate again!

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The New Course. Tour with photo's
« Reply #34 on: January 11, 2010, 04:01:02 PM »
Troy,

If you think that is unkept then you need to play the rest of Scotland or Britain for that matter!  All the courses at St.Andrews are pretty WELL kept in relation to the rest of the links in Scotland.   ;D

Hi Brian,

I use the term "unkempt" loosely, I know there is a lot of maintenance going on there and like Bill said, the maintenance is in the right places.  I prefer golf courses that appear as natural as possible.  Like the layout was there and all that was done was cut the turf short.  Here in the PNW, we call it Pasture Golf.  But, I like pretty much any golf course, especially the one I am working at and playing at the time.

Troy
We British call it Golf.   ;)
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Jamie Barber

Re: The New Course. Tour with photo's
« Reply #35 on: January 11, 2010, 04:05:40 PM »
The astro-turf cart paths are kinda cool, but man it sure could use some fertilizer to green it up a little couldn't it?
Is there a smiley missing? :) I was thinking how green it was - you should see some of the links in SE England in a dry summer

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The New Course. Tour with photo's
« Reply #36 on: January 11, 2010, 04:10:28 PM »
Indeed, Jamie. The only thing missing from the 10th fairway at Deal by the end of September was a couple of creases and two sets of stumps! ;D

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The New Course. Tour with photo's
« Reply #37 on: January 11, 2010, 04:19:19 PM »
I’d like to hear more from those who’ve played all the ST Andrews courses a number of times.  My impressions are based on a single play with a strong wind.

A few thoughts.

-   I came off with that warm feeling that I’d just played a great course.  Looking at these photos brought so much back but due to the low lying features, as others have mentioned, I doubt an hour after playing I could have described half the holes. That doesn’t mean that playing them isn’t fun, it is, it just means that you don’t go home with a head full of memories like you do from many GCA favourites.  It also means you could easily (over)sell this course to a bunch of mates and they might report back that they were disappointed in it, presumably because it does lack something of the wow factor.

-   How good is it? I’m wary to commit myself but I’d say it’s up there with Littlestone, Deal and Brancaster all of which have something in common with it. They are all very good courses that I’d be delighted to play again tomorrow.  I also note that the locals seem to narrowly prefer playing it as they don’t get held up like on the Old Course full of tourists. This indicates they don’t get tired of the challenge and it doesn’t pale in comparison with its near neighbour.  At half the price of it's neighbour it’s a bargain by UK standards.

-   IMO the course does suffer by setting out and being constricted by the Old and the Jubilee.  Links golf has a sense of freedom for me and I’m guessing only Gullane has quite the same feeling as here - “a golf factory”. Mucci might disagree but it does lose out a little for this. Turn that on its head and see it as a second fantastic course to play in town.


-   When playing I never felt like there was any lack of variety and reviewing the photo’s it seems to me they’ve set up the course beautifully. ON TOC, holes 2-7 all feature a blind tee shot and with the wind in the same direction for all, there is a kind of monotony. ON TNC we are normally given a glimpse of fairway but the angle we play from or the bits hidden by grass and whins constantly change, thus every tee shot seems like a fresh challenge.  It’s easy to overdo the comparison between the two; suffice to say that considering they are on identical land each really does have its own identity.


I can’t wait for another crack.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2010, 05:18:57 PM by Tony_Muldoon »
Let's make GCA grate again!

Andrew Summerell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The New Course. Tour with photo's
« Reply #38 on: January 11, 2010, 04:25:07 PM »
The New course is my favourite course in St. Andrews. 

Brian,

Are you not a big fan of The Old Course?

Sean Walsh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The New Course. Tour with photo's
« Reply #39 on: January 11, 2010, 06:04:05 PM »
Tony,

My feeling on the course is that it is a good solid links course, but lacks just a little excitement.  It is a far better course than the Jube and although a better overall course than the Eden, The Eden possesses many more thrilling holes (along with the duds).

The first is a nice gentle starter, perhaps too gentle but that may depend on where you sit on the nurse them in-hi em hard eraly architectural spectrum. I played it 5 or 6 times and probably caddied there 15-20.

With 2 there's a bit of "didn't I already play this one feel" it's just way too similar to the first.

The third is a good par 5.  For the good player even if you have the power to reach in 2 it's probably a better option to lay up and strike your best wedge.  That said many wedges either end up short or long and the up and downs from either aren't easy.  A wonderful green, especially the 15th portion of it.  While I'm on the 15th a lovely tough 4 at just the right point in the round with a devilish green to both hit in regulation and putt out

Four is a very good short 4, many players take too much club or the wrong line off the tee.

Five the site of my worst misread as a caddie (sorry Mianne  :-[ ) A tough tough hole.  Have to aim centre of green but anything slightly long is in the swale or even worse the gorse.  A tough tough par. The best miss is probably wide right, nice flat area and as long as the pin isn't far left a decent up and down.

Six, one of the more interesting holes on the course.  Bunkerless but tough (although it should be favoured by the wind more often than not I always seemed to have it against) especially into a headwind, a blind 5 wood into that green is no picnic.

Seven is a good hole but I just feel it could be more, the green itself is a little boring considering the shortish approach.

8 is a hole I really like, good well positioned cross bunkers, and decision to be made whether to go for it in 2 (usually the decision should be no)

9 a hole I couldn't really warm to.  Hit away and hope, hope you have the right number for the roulette wheel green.

10 Another bunkerless green but a lovely hole with plenty of movement on the fairway, have to try and stay left despite wanting to play (semmingly) safer to the right.  

11 A decent hole perhaps another bunker short and right of the centre line bunker would cause more decisions to be made.

12 Again a decent hole that could be more, Not a lot of interest in the drive, bomb it as long as you can and go from there.

13 A good hole, looks easier than it is, always plays a club longer than distance and wind suggest.

Is the fact I have barely any memory of 14 some indication of the blandness? Not long not short no bunkers no real movement in the green ho hum, quick get to the 15th.  Which I've already spoken about.  A hole you could play approaches to some positions all day without nailing it.  As tough an approach as any I can think of is the front right pin on this hole.

16 is a good enough long 4.  The tree behind the green is a curiosity that somehow fits, The only tree on the course and a good reference point as it's left of centre and that's where yuo want to be on this hole.

17, 17 ohh the bane of my caddying existence this reasonably good long par 3 cost me a bag in the British Open and so should be blown up.  If I could have those 5 seconds back again I would not have handed over the 7wood and forced my golfer (at pitch repairer point if need be) to use the 5iron I'd suggested, or in hindsight perhaps even a 6.  But Nooo 7 wood it was long into the crap behind the green, then shunted it back over the green into the bunker where it lay against the face.  Chalk up a triple bogey.  Miss playoff for the cut by one stroke.  DAMN IT

18 A good hole with some interest at the green which differentiates it from much of the course

Well there you go, much more than I planned to write.  All said I'd still prefer a round on the Eden.  Even less tourists over there (Although that was before the advent of Castle and I expect traffic by tourists on the new is diminished as a reslt).  




« Last Edit: January 11, 2010, 09:13:36 PM by Sean Walsh »

RSLivingston_III

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The New Course. Tour with photo's
« Reply #40 on: January 11, 2010, 07:50:32 PM »
Ahhh...the New. My first and the last rounds in the old town were played there. One of the middle rounds is one of the most memorable I have ever had.
Made me a bit homesick to see this thread.
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The New Course. Tour with photo's
« Reply #41 on: January 12, 2010, 01:32:08 AM »
The New course is my favourite course in St. Andrews.  

Brian,

Are you not a big fan of The Old Course?
Andrew,

I used to detest it.  I have played it many times now as well as backwards and only in recent outings have I started to enjoy the golf.  I prefer the New over the Old as do most locals.  I don't know if the locals prefer the New because you can play it quicker or that they think it is a better course.

I have said on here that anyone who likes TOC the first time is either lying or is too nostalgic to be objective or is American and has never seen or played links courses before.  The course is too blind from the tee for anyone to understand it the first time they play it.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2010, 01:36:12 AM by Brian Phillips »
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The New Course. Tour with photo's
« Reply #42 on: January 12, 2010, 01:42:09 AM »
Sean Walsh,

How can you not play short and left on the 17th if you only need bogey, par to qualify for the Open!   ???



The Eden is a wonderful course but I hate the Donald Steel rubbish on 14 and 15....brings tears to eyes everytime I play them.

« Last Edit: January 12, 2010, 01:44:35 AM by Brian Phillips »
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The New Course. Tour with photo's
« Reply #43 on: January 12, 2010, 01:50:08 AM »
2 small points

The green on 17 measures 36 in the 2009 scoresaver.  

If Desmond Muirhead had designed that pond the symbolism would be obvious to all ;D

Imaginary interview  (for FBD).

Dan Jenkins   "...and that pond on 14 is not very "Colty""

Peter Dawson  "Thats because it's a "Steely", Dan".
« Last Edit: January 12, 2010, 01:57:13 AM by Tony_Muldoon »
Let's make GCA grate again!

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The New Course. Tour with photo's
« Reply #44 on: January 12, 2010, 01:52:54 AM »
I can't understand the blanket "you can't say you liked or appreciated TOC the first time round" statement, but that's a discussion for another thread.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The New Course. Tour with photo's
« Reply #45 on: January 12, 2010, 02:45:58 AM »
I can't understand the blanket "you can't say you liked or appreciated TOC the first time round" statement, but that's a discussion for another thread.

Scott

I certainly agree with you.  I really liked TOC on my first go even though I was nowhere near getting my head round it.  I can recall thinking WTF after seven holes and then being totally blown away by the back 9.  If ever there was a course with unbalanced quality between the 9s - TOC is it.

Tony

I like The New, but have very few memories of it.  Perhaps I have totally forgotten how good it is, but I really like what I see in the pix. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The New Course. Tour with photo's
« Reply #46 on: January 12, 2010, 02:50:26 AM »
I can't understand the blanket "you can't say you liked or appreciated TOC the first time round" statement, but that's a discussion for another thread.
Scott,

You and I will most likely never agree on anything.  ;)

If you say you liked TOC, then you liked the aura of the course when you played it but you I don't believe anyone can like the course because of the technicality of the golf. Why? Because TOC is huge in angles and strategy and there is no way you can like the course because of the golf from one round and there is no way you can appreciate that from one round....not even the greatest architect in the world.

If you have a good scoring round then you may enjoy it but you will not have a clue how or why you managed to score well, you will have just scored well.  No on on their first outing at TOC even with a good score knows why or how they scored well.  If you do score well then the next time you will almost certainly not as the course will then start to mess with your mind.  This process will continue and you will go through a hate of the course as well before you really start to appreciate the strategy and nuances of the course.

The first time anyone plays TOC does not see at least half the course, is directed by either a caddie, a friend who has played the course or just by a gut feeling.

TOC is too big and too great for anyone ever to say that they understand the course in one outing.  They may have enjoyed their time on the course but they will certainly not have learnt much about it.  It is not possible in one round, there is too much to learn.  It would be like reading the Bible once from cover to cover and saying you understand Christianity.

No one can like the course first time because of its golf due to the fact you have not really played golf there the first time.  You have been pointed in a direction by someone or instinct and either got lucky or not depending on how you hit the ball not because of strategy you chose yourself.  You have not really played golf, you have played a driving range called TOC.  Only when you yourself start to make decisions off the tee without the help of a strokesaver or a caddie can you then start to truly like or appreciate her.
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The New Course. Tour with photo's
« Reply #47 on: January 12, 2010, 02:52:09 AM »
Scott and Sean,

How many times have you played TOC?
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The New Course. Tour with photo's
« Reply #48 on: January 12, 2010, 02:56:08 AM »
Once.

I never said "understand". I said "enjoy and appreciate".

Given your comments about NSWGC based on one round played predominantly from the ladies tees, I think there's decent irony in your stance.

« Last Edit: January 12, 2010, 03:01:58 AM by Scott Warren »

Brian Phillips

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Re: The New Course. Tour with photo's
« Reply #49 on: January 12, 2010, 03:06:21 AM »
The difference is that NSW does not have the width that TOC has to be able to create different ways of playing the course.

NSW is penal TOC is not.

TOC is one of the greatest courses in the world and has been ranked in the top 5 or 10 in all publications since golf publications have existed. 

NSW has not. 

There were at least 30 others on the day that we played the course that thought it was overated as well, not just myself.
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf