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Lloyd_Cole

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If the scenery steals the show completely
« on: January 10, 2010, 12:12:15 PM »
From Ran's Cape Kidnappers course profile - Of course, given that the scenery steals the show at Cape Kidnappers, many people never focus on the architecture itself.

I was lucky enough to visit recently and there were numerous occasions when I was indeed distracted from by task of getting the ball in the hole. Could one argue then, that this type of course - lets call it spectacular golf - is less of a pure golfing experience than, say a pure links where one is aware of the ocean, but where one rarely actually sees it?

Having played Barnbougle Dunes the next week, I would argue that the latter is indeed a more distilled golfing experience. But having thought about it, I still agree with the consensus, that CK is the finer course. I'd go further and argue that Doak's work there, had it not been of the very highest calibre would have failed, as the paying customers would only be there for the views, like Old Head (or so I hear).

Which is why I go one step further and argue that Cape Kidnappers may be the greatest design (I've seen) - to have integrated eighteen holes into this landscape so elegantly, without it ever feeling hackneyed or cliched, is a huge achievement.

Philippe Binette

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Re: If the scenery steals the show completely
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2010, 12:22:17 PM »
Scenery is great when the architect design a hole using the elements of the scenery as part of the strategy...

sadly, a lot of architects in front of a spectacular site design a hole that has nothing to do with the scenery, the same hole could be built anywhere.... those times I tend to say, great view, too bad somebody ruin it by building a golf hole

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If the scenery steals the show completely
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2010, 12:50:21 PM »
One of the many things I admired at Capilano, the only Stanley Thompson course I've played, was how he aligned the downhill holes on the front nine with the view of the harbor and two back nine par 4s, 15 and 17, with distant mountain peaks.  I'm sure every golf architect aims to do that whenever possible, but it seemed so effortless and natural at Capilano.

It didn't distract from the golf architecture because it wasn't forced at all.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: If the scenery steals the show completely
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2010, 02:23:03 PM »
Bill:

You would be amazed how many architects do not think about aligning their holes with a particular background.  I know that Jim Urbina asked Bill Coore about that some years back on a specific hole, and Bill said he didn't think it was too important.

I tend to do it all the time.  I've noticed it a lot in MacKenzie's work ... how the straight line from tee through green on #14 at NSW lines up straight across Botany Bay to the point on the other side, for example.

Bart Bradley

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Re: If the scenery steals the show completely
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2010, 02:45:07 PM »
Tom:

I was discussing whether or not distance views/land forms should be part of the evaluation of golf couse architecture with Pat Mucci on the "holes leaving the ocean" thread just yesterday.  I find it interesting that you pay attention to the view you are creating and applaud you for it.

It has been said that Ellis Maples and Aggie McRae (course founder of Grandfather) spent many, many days trying to get the 7th hole corridor at Grandfather just right, so that the corridor lined up with Dunvegan Peak in the background.  While it does not affect the way the hole plays, it does make the hole and green complex seem to fit neatly into the natural surroundings.

Here is the photo from Ran's profile.  I always thought the green was justly perfectly situated and that was long before I knew the story of the construction and in fact, before I consciously recognized that the corridor lined up with the peak in the distance.  Amazing what little things like this can do for your impression of a hole (without ever being immediately consciously noted).



Bart

« Last Edit: January 10, 2010, 02:46:51 PM by Bart Bradley »

john_stiles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If the scenery steals the show completely
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2010, 03:12:16 PM »
Any examples of such alignment on the GB&I links ?

I cannot think of a single one although there may not be as many opportinuities with the genarally low lying sea side ground next to the villages.

Would any of the approaches or tee shots align with Ben Bulben at  County Sligo ?

Anything at North Berwick with Bass Rock ?


Back in the US, for a parkland course, and seeing Grandfather Mountain course comment,    Wade Hampton has a tee shot straight at the beautiful Chimney Tops mountain with the rock escarpment.

JESII

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Re: If the scenery steals the show completely
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2010, 03:13:42 PM »
#9 at Royal County Down?

john_stiles

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Re: If the scenery steals the show completely
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2010, 03:21:14 PM »
Yes, 9th at RCD !

Although as I remember,   the marvelous scenery is as you top the hill walking to your tee ball.    Still having seen all the photos ,etc.  before the trip,    your jaw drops a bit and you almost forget about   "Where did my ball roll out to !"    Definitely a golf view that a photo cannot do justice.

Philippe Binette

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Re: If the scenery steals the show completely
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2010, 06:00:31 PM »
On The Old Course, I think they built some churches in the town to serve as aiming points on the way in  ;D

Anthony Gray

Re: If the scenery steals the show completely
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2010, 07:27:41 PM »


   How about that scene from "Lost in Translation" with Mt Fiji in the back.

  Anthony


Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If the scenery steals the show completely
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2010, 07:53:52 PM »
Any examples of such alignment on the GB&I links ?

I cannot think of a single one although there may not be as many opportinuities with the genarally low lying sea side ground next to the villages.

Would any of the approaches or tee shots align with Ben Bulben at  County Sligo ?

Anything at North Berwick with Bass Rock ?


Back in the US, for a parkland course, and seeing Grandfather Mountain course comment,    Wade Hampton has a tee shot straight at the beautiful Chimney Tops mountain with the rock escarpment.

John, if I recall correctly, I think #12 lines up with the Bass Rock at North Berwick.

Jed Peters

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If the scenery steals the show completely
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2010, 08:33:34 PM »
Bill:

You would be amazed how many architects do not think about aligning their holes with a particular background.  I know that Jim Urbina asked Bill Coore about that some years back on a specific hole, and Bill said he didn't think it was too important.

I tend to do it all the time.  I've noticed it a lot in MacKenzie's work ... how the straight line from tee through green on #14 at NSW lines up straight across Botany Bay to the point on the other side, for example.

Tom:

Perhaps the most famous of this is Stanley Thompson's work at Jasper.

Jed

Dale Jackson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If the scenery steals the show completely
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2010, 02:02:40 AM »
One of the many things I admired at Capilano, the only Stanley Thompson course I've played, was how he aligned the downhill holes on the front nine with the view of the harbor and two back nine par 4s, 15 and 17, with distant mountain peaks.  I'm sure every golf architect aims to do that whenever possible, but it seemed so effortless and natural at Capilano.

It didn't distract from the golf architecture because it wasn't forced at all.

And while I doubt Stanley has anything to do with the clubhouse, let us not forget the outstanding views of the mountains from the men's lounge.  If there is a better place to enjoy a beverage after a round I have not found it!

Those "distant mountain peaks", on some days they seem so close you can reach out and touch them.
I've seen an architecture, something new, that has been in my mind for years and I am glad to see a man with A.V. Macan's ability to bring it out. - Gene Sarazen

Mark Alexander

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If the scenery steals the show completely
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2010, 05:30:30 AM »
When I photograph a course, the scenery can both distract from and/or overshadow the design. Depending on what's in front of me, I can use the backdrop to make a poor hole look good or completely ignore it if the architecture is compelling enough.

It seems some architects become distracted by the view, designing relatively mundane holes against stunning backgrounds. One place where that doesn't happen is Castle Stuart where sight lines formed an enormously important part of the design process.

Jeffrey Stein

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Re: If the scenery steals the show completely
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2010, 07:25:27 AM »
First post, glad to join the discussion! 

Some of my most vivid golf shots this past year occured at the Meadow Club, a beautiful Mackenzie design.  The course is in a small valley which sets a perfect backdrop to watch your golf ball soar into the hillside.  One of the most relaxing and enjoyable rounds of golf I have played yet.  I found that the targets were well highlighted with distinct features in the distance on many holes.  This seems to be common among many sound designs.  (I have some visual examples but im still working on my html skills...)

Also, for example, it's almost always easier to describe to someone who doesn't know where to aim on a particular hole to "aim at that tree behind the green".  This is nicely blended into the green surrounds at the semi-blind approach to the #4 green at Bandon Trails.  There is a distinct tree behind the center of the green indicating the line of play just over the golfers horizon.
I love the smell of hydroseed in the morning.
www.steingolf.com

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: If the scenery steals the show completely
« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2010, 12:46:31 AM »

Anything at North Berwick with Bass Rock ?


John:

One of the holes on the East Links at North Berwick (now called the Glen Club) lines up precisely with the North Berwick Law.  From the tee it's very obvious, and then from the fairway looking up toward the green you can just barely see the peak of the hill behind the green.

We also fussed around with the position of the tee on the 6th hole at The Renaissance Club so that you could aim straight for the Law over the trees in the distance.

Anthony Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If the scenery steals the show completely
« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2010, 01:23:50 AM »
t think it was too important.

I tend to do it all the time.  I've noticed it a lot in MacKenzie's work ... how the straight line from tee through green on #14 at NSW lines up straight across Botany Bay to the point on the other side, for example.

Tom,

Are you perhaps referring to the 13th? From the fairway, the sightline runs straight through the green to the far point at Kurnell. The 14th is a skyline green so it's hard to see the far shore from the fairway.

After reading this thread, I feel like I have to add CK to the itinerary on the next trip. Jeez... first Tasmania, now NZ. After using that much hydro-electricity, I should get a Renewable Energy Credit to take home with me...  :)
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