Reviewing recent history

[Mac Plumart]

I stumbled across an older thread and as I find this topic interesting, I decided to post it and get some feedback.

Golf Digest Best New Private Courses for 2006...

Best New Private Courses
1. The Concession G.C., Bradenton, Fla., Jack Nicklaus and Tony Jacklin.
2. Forest Creek G.C. (North Cse.), Pinehurst, N.C., Tom Fazio.
3. The C. at Carlton Woods (Fazio), The Woodlands, Tex., Tom Fazio.
4. Champions Retreat G.C. (Bluff & Island), Evans, Ga., JackNicklaus, Arnold Palmer, Ed Seay and Harrison Minchew.
5. 3 Creek Ranch G.C., Jackson, Wyo., Rees Jones.
6. Ballyneal, Holyoke, Colo., Tom Doak.
7. Tumble Creek G. Cse at Suncadia, Cle Elum, Wash., Tom Doak.
8. Daniel Island C. (Ralston Creek Cse.), Daniel Island, S.C., Rees Jones.
9. Stone Eagle C., Palm Desert, Calif., Tom Doak.
10. Tuhaye G. Cse., Tuhaye, Utah, Mark O'Meara and Brit Stenson.

Thoughts or comments?

My main reason for posting it and asking questions is this...are these "best new courses" lists of any value?

[Ronald Montesano]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that Ballyneal was listed waaayy too high in 2006...right?

[Mac Plumart]

Frankly, that is what jumped out at me.

Ballyneal is now one of the best courses in the world, right?

But it was behind a number of courses that seem not to be quite as well regarded just 3 years later.

[Wade Whitehead]

My main reason for posting it and asking questions is this...are these "best new courses" lists of any value?

Yes, but only in a certain context, including how and why the lists themselves are compiled.

WW

[Garland Bayley]

Frankly, that is what jumped out at me.

Ballyneal is now one of the best courses in the world, right?

But it was behind a number of courses that seem not to be quite as well regarded just 3 years later.

What makes you think that The Concession is not one of the best courses in the world?

[Philippe Binette]

I doubt bestnew courses lists are of any value...

Is there any rater who has played all the new courses in a year so he can compare?

Sometimes the winner is obvious and then the rest is not... sometimes weird stuff happen lilke naming The Rock best new canadian and then the course got rebuilt the next year because it was that bad...

[Gary Slatter]

Of all the lists the one I find less note worthy is "Best new.......".  It usually means "the course with the most PR before opening".  Sometimes there will be exceptions, Castle Stuart.  Sometimes not. Castle Course.   I hope Cabot Links will be the next exception!
Sagebrush has lived up to its reputation too, I hope it's a financial success for Zoke..

[Andy Troeger]

Frankly, that is what jumped out at me.

Ballyneal is now one of the best courses in the world, right?

But it was behind a number of courses that seem not to be quite as well regarded just 3 years later.

Mac,
Keep in mind that at least some of the Golf Digest panel tends to look at golf courses in a far different manner than folks on this forum. Some will claim that makes the panel (of which I am a member) not worth consideration, but I think its better to look at it as a differing viewpoint. Especially worth considering is that many golfers don't care for wild greens, especially low handicappers that make up the GD panel. Those folks don't tend to like the courses that so many on this forum love, including Ballyneal.

I have played Ballyneal, 3 Creek Ranch, and Concession, all after this list came out, and do think Ballyneal is far superior to the other two, but wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if Concession would still get the nod from the GD panel as a whole. Here in New Mexico, I think some panelists including myself really like Black Mesa, but at least a couple others probably don't care for it at all for similar reasons.

As far as "Best New" lists, the sample size and time to visit these courses is much smaller than for the 100 Greatest and for many courses on the state listings. That alone makes them less statistically valid. Who knows how many panelists visited more than 1-2 of these courses in that particular year.

[Mac Plumart]

Andy (and others)...

Great stuff!!

I have studied that different rating entities and it is always good to get further scoop on what the specific ones like or don't like.

I agree that it is good to get a different view on golf courses, which is why I like looking at/listenting to a wide variety of opinions.  As different people have different tastes and preferences.

Your posts on others have noted that few raters/panelists will actually play the courses on the "Best New" courses lists, therefore, they are less statistically valid.  BINGO!!!  That makes total sense and can explain the future wild movements in regards to their rankings.

Perhaps to extract value from these lists, simply look at the names on it and do some diligence to see which ones might be to my liking and take it from there.

Thanks guys!!

[Kalen Braley]

I think the point Andy is trying to make is that while a course like Ballyneal may be a star in GCA.com circles, if you stray very far from those circles, you will likely find out that most people have never even heard of it, much less have any smattering of an informed opinion on it.

And while most of us may prefer our golf courses to be done in the manner of Ballyneal, I'd be willing to bet the majority of GD raters are more interested in a stern test of tree lined fairways, well protected "fair" greens, and all the other typical stuff they hear on TV.

But thats just a guess!!   

[Kalen Braley]

P.S. 

Furthermore I look at these lists like an NBA draft.  Some years you have an absolutly loaded class with tons of super duper stars.. i.e. think 1984 when you had Hakeem, Jordan, Barkely, and Stockton amongst others.  On the flip side you had the draft of 2000 where the top 5 picks looked like this:  1. Kenyon Martin 2. Stromile Swift 3. Darius Miles 4. Marcus Fizer 5. Mike Miller

So in that same spirit, best new of the year lists are not all created equally, its just the best there was at the time...

[Andy Troeger]

I think the point Andy is trying to make is that while a course like Ballyneal may be a star in GCA.com circles, if you stray very far from those circles, you will likely find out that most people have never even heard of it, much less have any smattering of an informed opinion on it.

And while most of us may prefer our golf courses to be done in the manner of Ballyneal, I'd be willing to bet the majority of GD raters are more interested in a stern test of tree lined fairways, well protected "fair" greens, and all the other typical stuff they hear on TV.

But thats just a guess!!   

That's at least generally the idea I was trying to make--although Ballyneal has been discussed among GD raters to be sure. Its just that not everyone likes that style of golf--whereas many folks here hate lost balls; I think some guys hate three putting just as much or more. Its not a Ballyneal issue--the same could be said of Black Mesa and Kingsley. The GD panel has a lot of guys that play a lot of competitive stroke-play amateur golf--that's a far cry from why some members of this board play the game and the results change accordingly.

Mac has the right attitude toward the lists--get some ideas, do some research to see what looks interesting to YOU, and go play accordingly!  The point is not to say that #4 on the list is definitively better than #5. The scoring difference between the two could incredibly small.

[Mac Plumart]

Kalen...

Your bring up a GREAT point and one that I wanted to point out/ask you guys about.

So, through this site I get invited (along with many other GCA'ers) to go to a  Doak course later in the year.  The gracious host tells me, "hey if you know some one who is not a member of the site but would appreicate the course and the trip, invite them along."

So, I think to myself...do I know anyone along those lines?

I ask golf shop owners, Pros, avid goflers, etc...no less than 10 people the following questions...

Do you know who Tom Doak is?  Have you heard of Ballyneal?  

One one person...a super...said "yeah, I've heard of Tom Doak."  The rest hadn't even heard of either.


Then I add on...You know Donald Ross?  Everyone says, yes.  Well, I add...Tom Doak does the same thing Donald Ross did back in the day.  "Oh, okay" is what I get.

Anyway, I have more to say, but I've got to run...however, at this point I will just say that you are most likely correct regarding your point.

[jonathan_becker]

P.S. 

Furthermore I look at these lists like an NBA draft.  Some years you have an absolutly loaded class with tons of super duper stars.. i.e. think 1984 when you had Hakeem, Jordan, Barkely, and Stockton amongst others.  On the flip side you had the draft of 2000 where the top 5 picks looked like this:  1. Kenyon Martin 2. Stromile Swift 3. Darius Miles 4. Marcus Fizer 5. Mike Miller

So in that same spirit, best new of the year lists are not all created equally, its just the best there was at the time...

Kalen,

That 2000 draft was pathetic.  I completely forgot about it until you posted the top 5.  Picks #2-4 made me laugh out loud!! 

[Kalen Braley]

P.S. 

Furthermore I look at these lists like an NBA draft.  Some years you have an absolutly loaded class with tons of super duper stars.. i.e. think 1984 when you had Hakeem, Jordan, Barkely, and Stockton amongst others.  On the flip side you had the draft of 2000 where the top 5 picks looked like this:  1. Kenyon Martin 2. Stromile Swift 3. Darius Miles 4. Marcus Fizer 5. Mike Miller

So in that same spirit, best new of the year lists are not all created equally, its just the best there was at the time...

Kalen,

That 2000 draft was pathetic.  I completely forgot about it until you posted the top 5.  Picks #2-4 made me laugh out loud!! 

Glad I could amuse.  At least K-Mart has had a decent career, but certainly won't be a Hall of Famer!! 

In all fairness Jamaal Magloire and Micheal Redd also came out of this draft, (Redd as a 2nd round pick which in retrospect was an awesome find)...but then again neither one of those two will be in the HoF either.

[Joel Zuckerman]

I've only played the bottom 3 on this list.

IMO, Daniel Island is OK, Stone Eagle is really something special, and Tuhaye, other than the first 4-5 holes which are pretty nice, and quite scenic besides, is pretty grim, a real dissapointment.  In the years to come, that GC in particular, will sink like a stone from any ranking body, if it still exists on one today.

[Jud_T]

It should simply be relabled, "Most interesting new courses with potential"...

[Mac Plumart]

Ok...I continued my access whoring ways and got access to Palmetto and Champions Retreat.   

In all seriousness, Mark Pritchett set this amazing trip up and it was just that, amazing.


It was a great trip as I got to experience to old school architecture/club feel of Palmetto and the new school architecture/club feel through Champions Retreat.  This trip is relevant to this thread, as Champions was rated highly in this 2006 "best new" list and one of the things I decided to embrace that was discussed on this thread was/is doing my own due diligence on courses to see if I like them and/or agree with these lists.

In regards to Champions Retreat, I am very glad I did.  I loved it...all the way around.  Great golf escape desination, great cottages, great dining area/clubhouse, and great company.  Mark and I and a few of his friends talked golf and golf course architecture all day and all night long (and played a little golf in between conversations).  Does it get better than that?

Anyway, the point of all this is that indeed these "best new" lists may add some value.  Champions Retreat is worth the trip and overnight stay without question.  The golf itself has three nines with three distinct, but cohesvie feels to them.

The Palmer nine is the most scenic and true to Palmer's reputation many of the shots required aerial approaches.




The Nicklaus nine was the most difficult and had the most interesting greens.




The Player nine was fun.  Flat out fun.  I've played two Player courses and I've had a blast on both of them.  This redan style par 3 is a great example of a fun shot.




Anyway, this is a discussion we had a while back that I didn't forget and took some action on it and it ended in great education and fun.  Take it for what it is worth.

Thanks Mark...it was an amazing time!!

[Anthony Gray]

P.S. 

Furthermore I look at these lists like an NBA draft.  Some years you have an absolutly loaded class with tons of super duper stars.. i.e. think 1984 when you had Hakeem, Jordan, Barkely, and Stockton amongst others.  On the flip side you had the draft of 2000 where the top 5 picks looked like this:  1. Kenyon Martin 2. Stromile Swift 3. Darius Miles 4. Marcus Fizer 5. Mike Miller

So in that same spirit, best new of the year lists are not all created equally, its just the best there was at the time...

  Agreed Kalen. Its like "Best New Wife". You just don't know until its been a couple of years.

  Anthony

[Greg Tallman]

P.S. 

Furthermore I look at these lists like an NBA draft.  Some years you have an absolutly loaded class with tons of super duper stars.. i.e. think 1984 when you had Hakeem, Jordan, Barkely, and Stockton amongst others.  On the flip side you had the draft of 2000 where the top 5 picks looked like this:  1. Kenyon Martin 2. Stromile Swift 3. Darius Miles 4. Marcus Fizer 5. Mike Miller

So in that same spirit, best new of the year lists are not all created equally, its just the best there was at the time...

  Agreed Kalen. Its like "Best New Wife". You just don't know until its been a couple of years.

  Anthony

Run Doctor Gray... RUN!

[Tom_Doak]

Its like "Best New Wife". You just don't know until its been a couple of years.

Now THAT is funny.

By the way, I still have a sweater from Tumble Creek they gave me with "#7 Golf Digest Best New Private Course" on its sleeve.  Cashmere ... really nice.  But I don't know where it is right now, as I don't choose to wear it very often.   

[TEPaul]

"Its like "Best New Wife". You just don't know until its been a couple of years."


Anthony:

THAT certainly is FUNNY, but like all things in life there are exceptions to every RULE. In this case it is possible to know about a "Best New Wife" without taking a couple of years to determine it.

I give you the case of an incident amongst some friends from Aronimink who can be some very funny and outrageous guys (They may be part of the group Sigel used to play with there affectionately known as "The Irregulars.").

Here's the case, the incident (the exception to your rule):

One day the group was playing a hole and coming up another hole in view was a really attractive women who none of them knew. And one of the group said to the rest: "Guys, do you see that gorgeous woman over there? She is going to be my future EX-wife."

And so it all became!  

[Greg Tallman]

Anthony,

Tom and Tom may find it funny but if they knew what I knew...

[TEPaul]

Greg:

I do know what you know and I've already offered to treat him to a minimum of a dozen sessions with Dr. Katz (to pay for them and they definitely ain't inexpensive). I like Anthony and one can hardly do better for him than that.

[John Moore II]

Its like "Best New Wife". You just don't know until its been a couple of years.

Now THAT is funny.

By the way, I still have a sweater from Tumble Creek they gave me with "#7 Golf Digest Best New Private Course" on its sleeve.  Cashmere ... really nice.  But I don't know where it is right now, as I don't choose to wear it very often.   

I wouldn't wear it either. Thats pretty lame that they put #7 on their sleeve. Tells me they probably didn't have much else of substance to brag about.