Tobacco Road - An alternate view

[Kalen Braley]

Mike,

First off,  welcome back to the site....good to see you slumming here again. 

Secondly, your thoughts seems to confirm the general feel for TR, its a love/hate relationship and you certainly seem to fall right in line with this.  As a lover of quirk, from what I've seen in pictures, I would love to take a crack at this course.  I'm sure some parts are extreme and very different from what one might get from the norm golf experience, but then again, thats what I love proibably the most in a golf course....something different!

Once again, good to see you around here!!

Kalen

[Mike Cirba]

Good discussion and some well-considered points.

I should mention that I had plenty of time to really look around and see it.

Despite an 11:00am shotgun start with about 50 golfers due to early freezing, and despite carts allowed on the fairways, the round took 5.5 hours.      I can't imagine it taking much less.

[Mike Sweeney]

Good discussion and some well-considered points.

I should mention that I had plenty of time to really look around and see it.

Despite an 11:00am shotgun start with about 50 golfers due to early freezing, and despite carts allowed on the fairways, the round took 5.5 hours.     I can't imagine it taking much less.

Mike

If you had 50 public golfers playing Pine Valley in carts on a cold day, how long would it take? There is no difference between the two in terms of pace of play. It is the golfers on those two courses, not the golf courses.

TR is so much more fun when you move up a set of tees from your "typical" yardage.

[Ronald Montesano]

I looked back at 15 green from 16 tee and watched a chap putting from bottom right to top left.  I commented to my partner "If he doesn't aim high enough, he'll putt it into the front bunker."  Sure enough, the guy peeked on his putt, pull/skanked it dead left, into the front bunker.  I gassed from laughter, then got payback from #16, where I made bogey from the fairway.

As with The Old Course (and all other courses worth their salt), I would need more than the one go-round I've had to truly learn the course.  I would play it again and again and would make every effort to hit to different sides of the fairways, to get a sense of the angles.  I agree that it is not everyone's cup of tea and I like the point that Sweeney made about how long it can take to play.

I found #13 to be a better hole than #1 and loved that Strantz didn't fall prey to the 10-4-4 (4s, 3s, 5s) formula of so many courses.  Truly, for me, the 3s and the 5s are what I remember about a course (along with the short 4s.)  It's the mid and long 4s that drive me bonkers.

[George Pazin]

TR is so much more fun when you move up a set of tees from your "typical" yardage.

This may be true for the approach shots, but don't you think it would make many tee shots rather ho-hum: "What's my yardage before the fairway runs out?" I played the course from a bunch of different tees within one round, and I can't say I think it was a plus.

Another feature I didn't particularly care for were what seemed like very many shallow but wide greens. In retrospect, I can see how this might encourage certain sides of the fairway, as it would greatly increase one's margin for error, but I remember thinking at the time that it was a feature that placed undue emphasis on controlling one's distance, which is a trait that heavily favors better golfers.

I never did figure out what club to hit, way up on that 17th tee. Seemed like every one went over, though I don't recall trying my lob wedge.

[A.G._Crockett]

Good discussion and some well-considered points.

I should mention that I had plenty of time to really look around and see it.

Despite an 11:00am shotgun start with about 50 golfers due to early freezing, and despite carts allowed on the fairways, the round took 5.5 hours.     I can't imagine it taking much less.

TR is so much more fun when you move up a set of tees from your "typical" yardage.

Mike S.
This point is well-taken for all Strantz courses, but for Tobacco Rd. and True Blue most especially.  However, I do think that Tobacco Rd. had the potential to be painfully slow more often than most golf courses because so many people are a)looking for golf balls, and b)hitting LOTS of putts. 

[A.G._Crockett]

Good discussion and some well-considered points.

I should mention that I had plenty of time to really look around and see it.

Despite an 11:00am shotgun start with about 50 golfers due to early freezing, and despite carts allowed on the fairways, the round took 5.5 hours.      I can't imagine it taking much less.

Mike C.,
Are you around Cartersville, GA much anymore? 

[Ryan Admussen]

Heading there in April, have time for 3 or 4 rounds in the Pinehurst area, still on the fence about playing here, I'm assuming it would provide nice contrast/different experience than courses like Pine Needles, Mid Pines and #2.

Is it a must play on a 3 or 4 round trip or are there better options?

[A.G._Crockett]

Heading there in April, have time for 3 or 4 rounds in the Pinehurst area, still on the fence about playing here, I'm assuming it would provide nice contrast/different experience than courses like Pine Needles, Mid Pines and #2.

Is it a must play on a 3 or 4 round trip or are there better options?

It is a MUST play!  You will never see anything else like it, and if you are on this forum, you are interested enough to see the Road.  GO!

[Ronald Montesano]

From my perspective, the reason that the tee ball on 18 is challenging is equal to the reason that the approach to 9 is challenging...both are uphill to unseen targets.  It is the tremendous mind games that Strantz plays with us that cause us concern.  Think about these shots on the outward nine:  the carry over the crap on #4, the drive for the green on #5, the shot over the hazard on #7.  These aren't long carries, just visually intimidating ones.  Most of his fairways are wide enough (ironically, the same complaint you get on some of the greens...too wide!!) to forgive any shot that gets out far enough.  If you can hit driver, 3 or 4 metal or 2 o 3 hybrid well enough, you can play every tee shot at Tobacco Road.

Most of the courses I've played in the Sandhills (The Pit, Little River, Tobacco Road, Tot Hill {technically not in the sandhills}) utilize enormous fans around some greens.  That's life in North Carolina.  We were there last August and the fans were in full use.  From my recollection, only Southern Pines didn't need one.

My opinion is that folks on this site and beyond that complain about Tobacco Road are intimidated by abnormal visual targeting and would complain about any Strantz course (or any course that requires similar visceral fortitude.)  Man up, store up and release!

[A.G._Crockett]

From my perspective, the reason that the tee ball on 18 is challenging is equal to the reason that the approach to 9 is challenging...both are uphill to unseen targets.  It is the tremendous mind games that Strantz plays with us that cause us concern.  Think about these shots on the outward nine:  the carry over the crap on #4, the drive for the green on #5, the shot over the hazard on #7.  These aren't long carries, just visually intimidating ones.  Most of his fairways are wide enough (ironically, the same complaint you get on some of the greens...too wide!!) to forgive any shot that gets out far enough.  If you can hit driver, 3 or 4 metal or 2 o 3 hybrid well enough, you can play every tee shot at Tobacco Road.

Most of the courses I've played in the Sandhills (The Pit, Little River, Tobacco Road, Tot Hill {technically not in the sandhills}) utilize enormous fans around some greens.  That's life in North Carolina.  We were there last August and the fans were in full use.  From my recollection, only Southern Pines didn't need one.

My opinion is that folks on this site and beyond that complain about Tobacco Road are intimidated by abnormal visual targeting and would complain about any Strantz course (or any course that requires similar visceral fortitude.)  Man up, store up and release!

Ronald,
I agree with the vast majority of your post.  But it is a valid point that Tobacco Road is a very difficult course that is often not enjoyable for lesser golfers because of tee shots like 18.  They simply have no chance to recover, thus a slope of 142 at 6300 yds., while the course rating is only 70.8.  There aren't many courses in the country with those numbers, and it IS a legitimate criticism of the course.

[Steve Lang]

 I've played TR 8 times.. but alas, not in last 4 years..  we usually played it in late March-May time periods.. two loops on each day, and in the middle of a week of golfing the Sand Hills.. so no excuses, game on..  it became part of the rota immediately because it was fun, challenging, and could deflate your spirits or lift you up on seemingly any given shot .. yeh I like it, blind shots and all, forced carries, intimidating looks, go & no-go places, times when a wee nip of liquid courage might seem appropriate.. 18 holes that must be played - your choice whether to grind for score if you know the course or adopt the "I didn't come all this way to lay up!" attitude.  

Re drainage, I've played it wet and dry and certainly no course is fun when wet.. but i think some problems there have to do with the sand that was removed, i.e., the well graded stuff (consistent sizing) versus the likely poorly graded stuff (mixed bag sands with silty and clayey fines) that was left there..  the movement of water differs running off or going through those varying soil types.. would be interesting to see the seasonal ground water levels across the site ... and compare to how the ball runs..

There are many holes in the Sand Hills area that have similar feel due to use of similar topography, TR's offerings quickly stick out IMHO.      


Can't wait to get back

[Chris DeNigris]

Howdy Steve,

Come close to killing anyone lately? 

TR is wonderful for what it is and what it isn't.

It is wild, beautiful, fun, goofy, exacting, dramatic and controversial.

It's not Mid Pines, Pinehurst 1-whatever, or just about anything else you're likely to run across in or outside the sandhills.

As far as Strantz goes, I think RNK is better, and there's a few holes at TR that I'm not really wild about (12, 16, 17)...but every time I make the turn I start getting silly with anticipation...to see whether I can drive it close enough to the monster pit on 11 to get on in 2...or more likely if I can make par from the bottom of said pit (what a fun bunker shot!)

IMO that's what makes it a MUST MUST play..and why I drive 7+ hours every spring for a great day of 36.

[jonathan_becker]

I will add to my previous post that TR is very polarizing and a little out there, but I do like the course.  I find it fun to play, and it's one of the greatest risk/reward courses I've ever seen.  Giving it a go on #1, 4, 11, 13, trying to drive the green on 5, and firing at the flags on the par 3s is great fun at TR.

[Steve Lang]

  Hey Chris, Happy new year..  no ...  no one has been in peril lately!  and i now let approaching groups pass safely.. event if they are 100 yards left..  

.. the real question is whether you'd rather drive 12+ hours to play in Michigan or 7+ to play the Sand Hills...

[Chris DeNigris]

Steve,

That's a no-brainer....Michigan wins hands down, especially if I get to play with you, Sheila and Little Joe at The Mines!

[Tim Gavrich]

Tobacco Road seems to be the ultimate match play course.  I agree with those who have said it is a pretty easy course; one of the four or five times in my life when I've broken 70 was at Tobacco Road a couple years ago.  I can't wait to go back, not because it's an especially great test of golf, but for the same reason I enjoy Salvador Dali paintings.

[Ronald Montesano]

I don't quite understand how the term "match play course" came into being.  If the two sides are fairly matched, if both are on or off their game to the proper degree, the match is excellent, regardless of the playing field.  What would be an example of a poor match play course?

[Tim Gavrich]

I don't quite understand how the term "match play course" came into being.  If the two sides are fairly matched, if both are on or off their game to the proper degree, the match is excellent, regardless of the playing field.  What would be an example of a poor match play course?

True enough.  I don't believe there to be such a thing as a "poor match play course."  When I say "good match play course," I mean that it's not a course where I would want to hold a large stroke play event because of the amount of deep peril that would (and does) slow down rounds.  In other words, "good match play course" is a euphemism for "not-so-excellent stroke play course."

[Jay Cox]

I don't quite understand how the term "match play course" came into being.  If the two sides are fairly matched, if both are on or off their game to the proper degree, the match is excellent, regardless of the playing field.  What would be an example of a poor match play course?

I thought that a "match play course" was a course better to play in a hole-by-hole competition than for a cumulative score, perhaps where the constant fear of a snowman would drive a smart player to play an overly conservative and therefore boring game in stroke play.

[Jaeger Kovich]

I played TR in mid november during the hurricane that came through, so drainage issues were to be expected. However the wettest golf course I have ever played for no apparent reason was another Stranz, Royal New Kent, which I believe someone else mentioned. (I enjoyed TR more, mostly because it is somewhat walkable, RNK isn't.)

Tim - I had a similar situation with scoring as you did. I had awful conditions and had the round of my life the first time I played it. If you can manage your game well and have a great feel for your carry distances, you can do some damage with your yardage book.

[Wade Whitehead]

I don't quite understand how the term "match play course" came into being.  If the two sides are fairly matched, if both are on or off their game to the proper degree, the match is excellent, regardless of the playing field.  What would be an example of a poor match play course?

Ronald:

I think the term reflects potential for scoring variety.  A good match play venue provides [at least a couple of ] holes on which players of similar abilities might have widely variant scores.  Risk-reward and such are considerations.

A course with less potential for trainwrecks isn't as "exciting" for most players as a place like Tobacco Road (or the Ocean Course, for example).

WW

[A.G._Crockett]

I don't quite understand how the term "match play course" came into being.  If the two sides are fairly matched, if both are on or off their game to the proper degree, the match is excellent, regardless of the playing field.  What would be an example of a poor match play course?

Ronald:

I think the term reflects potential for scoring variety.  A good match play venue provides [at least a couple of ] holes on which players of similar abilities might have widely variant scores.  Risk-reward and such are considerations.

A parkland course with less potential for trainwrecks isn't as "exciting" for most players as a place like Tobacco Road (or the Ocean Course, for example).

WW

I would add that the lesser player gets killed on some holes on a course like TR with a huge slope number.  In match play, they lost one hole; in stroke play, they are cooked.

[Ronald Montesano]

Tim:  I see your point...so it's more of a "better this than that."

Next question:  did Strantz understand drainage?  Was he ... ahh, forget it... I'll start a new thread.

[Greg Krueger]

I think it is important to remember the time of year and the amount of rain that fell in December. I live about 45 minutes from TR and played there December 24th. Also played 2 courses in Raleigh on the 23rd & 26th that were swamps. TR usually plays pretty firm under normal conditions.