[SGD]

Gentlemen (and Ladies):

A group of us are looking at doing a golf-only club on a beautiful site, probably an 8 site on the Doak scale, marred only by significant high tension wires and towers that go north to south through a canyon that bisects the 300-acre site.  

I've played Chester Valley in Pennsylvania that has high tension wires literally down the 18th hole (really bad), they are in the background of Pete and Perry Dye's Karsten ASU course (bad), and I've been told that Tom Doak had them somewhere on his property at Riverfront in Virginia.  I've also been told that Caves Valley BURIED a mile of such wires that crossed #10 at a cost of $2 Million dollars (in 1993).  The wires on our prospective property would be even more costly to do this and we want the money invested to go into the golf.

Question:  What golf courses have people seen that are good examples of the architect successfully dealing with high tension wires and how was the eyesore addressed by the architect?

Thanks.

[TEPaul]

I remember having grown up at Piping Rock that there were wires just over the 14th tee that could be quite easily hit with a tee shot. There was the rule on the scorecard that a shot hitting the wires must be replayed. Don't know if the wires are still there.

Can't recall the golf course out in the Far East but last year the President of the Golf Association of Philadelpia was playing it and I believe he said there were wires all over the place. On a par 3 he actually hit one and made a hole in one. Of course, I told him that logically under the rules the shot should be canceled.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Have you been to Cascades (Sylmar) at all lately?

Some realy wonderful work there by Bob Cupp (UGH!)

Oak Creek has a magnificent set of lines and even Barona Creek on top of the hill.

when I get back from dinner, I'll let you know exactly what it takes to bury them. (Electrically speaking)

[Mike Cirba]

SGD;

I don't know the answer but it's a fantastic question.

In fact, I have almost come to expect seeing high-tension wires when I play a brand new course.  It seems to me that the economics of land aquisition makes land with this intrusion considerably less expensive.  Even the much hyped Fazio course in New Jersey, Pine Hill, has that problem.

Just a humorous aside....and would love to hear input from the electricians among us (Tommy?) as to how this might happen...

I was playing a course near Harrisburg, PA, and the first hole had high tension wires coming right down the length of it.  At the time, my driver was being repaired, and the one I was using was worn to the graphite shaft on the spot I place my thumbs.  

On the tee, which was wet with dew, I grounded the club and got zapped.  Thinking it was my imagination, I grounded it again, and WAM...felt the shock impulse to my toenails!!!

Now...I know the power companies always talk about the safety of their operations, but later that same year I was playing a course in New Jersey and literally the exact same thing happened on a hole running under power lines.

So, this is not something I imagined.  I felt as though my metal club, metal shaft, and connection through my thumbs had somehow "completed the circuit".  What the h*@* is going on here?

Personally, I learned three lessons;

1) I would NEVER buy a house near high-tension lines
2) I keep a persimmon driver around, just in case
3) I keep my "backup" clubs gripped

[David_Elvins]

A slightly related, slightly amusing anecdote.  I had a friend who holed a chip on the eighteenth hole to win the match.  In jubilation he threw his wedge in the air.  You guessed it, it hit the powerlines, blacked out the club house for a few hours (preventing his celebratory drinks) and turned his steel shaft into a graphite shaft.

[David_Elvins]

There is a a newish Greg Norman course in Australia (THe Moonah course at the NAtional) that has a windmill in the middle of one of the fairways.  Maybe you should just have the powerlies running straight down the fairways and in 100 years they will be looked on as being a relic to old technology, adding to the old world charm of the course.

[K.Hegland]

I spent last summer interning at The Austin Golf Club and there was a string of high tension wires cutting through a piece of the property.  C&C did an excellent job of hiding them though, they don't come into play at all and you only really see one of the towers from the fourth tee.  I'm not sure how its going to affect the projected par 3 course, but I'm not worried, I think they'll do another great job of innocently incorporating it into the scene so you have to look for it to even know its there.  

[Kevin_Reilly]

SFGC had a power line that bissected the 8th fairway.  When I played the course in the early 80s it was possible to strike the wire with your tee shot.  The rule was that you were able to re-tee. Some years later the line was removed, either put under ground or moved.  I'm not sure what happened to it.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Mike,
Crazy to say that you were more thenlikely receiving a jolt of eddy currents that were more then likely a result of the atmosphere around those high transmission lines. If you would have had a florescent tube on you, it would have also been glowing to some extent.

Simply put, you were a conductor and those crazy protons were being attracted to all of the crazy neutrons on/in/around you. They look for the path of least resistance, to ground, and in this case it was through your golf club with the worn grip. Depending on the situation, it was more then likely static, enough to give you a quick zap.

Back to the construction side.

I have done a lot of duct bank in my career. This is the type of installation of conduit (Pipe) in the ground, and surprizingly the installation of conduit in the gorund is pretty speedy. The cost comes from the cost of the concrete vaults that have to be buried underground (set) that are, depending on the size of the transmission up to 20' long  x 10' wide x 12' deep.

Trenching has to be dug anywhere from 4' to 12' deep, and that requires operators on track hoes and back hoes. Another factor is that you have to have surveyors out to plot the site; Dig Alert come out make sure that all utilities don't have lines where you are digging.

All of these vaults will have ground rods sunk and everything that is steel inside the vault from the stanchions which the wires sits on; the ladder which allows access into the vault, as well as the outer ring of the manhole, has to be grounded to that grounding system.

All of this takes time, and of course with anythign underground, it requires some stand around time while either trenches are dug deeper or vaults are evacuated for fresh air. You also have to have a man hole watch with tri-pod and a manwinch; an LEL and Oxygen sensor to determine that anyone that is in the vault working is safe.

When all of the conduit has been installed, hopefully before back-filling of the trenches is complete (Just in case there are any obstructions) all of the conduits are checked for being clear and pull lines are installed as per power company specifications.

It may sound simple, and it ultimately is, you still have a lot of labor around while doing it.

$2 million to do Caves Valley? (I thought it was across a couple of fairways and then off site.) That sounds high, but if the site is clay with all sorts of rock, it is very much a possibility.

[AndyI]

I really dislike playing in the vicinity of high-tension power lines, and it is not just because of the spoiled view.  Forsgate in New Jersey has them running along the 8th and 9th holes (I believe) of the Banks course.  When playing those holes, you can occasionally hear a distinct high-frequency clicking sound coming from the wires, much like the sound of static electricity when you take off a sweater.  It's unsettling.

In addition, I have noticed (in both playing golf and fishing) that there is a distinct lack of animal activity in these areas.  There are very few, if any, birds, squirrels, or other animals that you would otherwise expect to find.  The odd thing is that I typically get an eerie feeling being in these areas that I can't explain at first, and then I realize that it's because I don't hear any birds singing or small animals rustling around.  The area sounds lifeless and seems unnatural.  I find myself just wanting to get away from the area.

I wonder if these problems would be alleviated by burying the wires.  If so, I think that it would be worth the investment.

[Slag_Bandoon]

 At Heron Lakes Municipal here in Portland, on the Great Blue (RTJ Jr.) there are towers and lines that run between the 13th and 14th holes and are not really in play as they run parallel and are only an eyesore (for a purist) and nothing much more.  They do come into play from the back tees on the 17th if somebody skies one, but back tee hitters never do that.      (Happened last week)  

  Anyway, the routing helps tremendously in avoiding them in play and thought.  Of course this is no 8 land but is the best muni course in PDX IMHO.  

[A_Clay_Man]

First off, I assume the lands acquisition costs are a deal.

It makes sense that future golf projects will continue to be built on sites with similar eyesores just because of thier affordability. So, your not alone.

There is a relatively new club in Reno Nv. (Andreas CC ?) that has the big tension wires coming right down the hillside. It looks like the whole electrical needs of several city's comes from these monsters but I have no idea.

As far as minimizing thier effect on play I think it should be a simple matter for the experts, who you'll be paying, to do exactly what you want or at least the lesser of the evils. If not bag the site and keep searching

[Patrick_Mucci]

Annapolis, Caves Valley, Fountain Valley, Old Marsh

[Robert_Walker]

Old Memorial in Tampa has some power lines
Pete Dye club in Bridgeport WV has a power pole at the back of a green
Pine Valley has a view with Power Lines on the inward 9

[Craig Van Egmond]

As Tommy mentioned Oak Creek does have power lines.  Also Sanctuary in Scottsdale is impacted by them and Desert Canyon here in Washington has some power lines that come into play.  

[guest]

Power lines

Twisted Dune-dunescape created

Lookaway-runs through course unfettered

[RJ_Daley]

As I understand it, the electric power companies are now compensating the dairy farmers for loss of milk production from stray voltage.  I'm no expert on this, but it sure makes common sense to me.  Can you get strokes too if you receive stray voltage during your golf round?  

[Mike_Cirba]

Good idea, RJ!!

Maybe I can blame my putting and chipping twitches on my electrifying experience!

[Tom Doak]

Unfortunately, power lines are not at all unusual as part of golf course sites nowadays.  We've had them at Quail Crossing and at Riverfront and Texas Tech [along the property line and not inside it], and I've looked at several other sites which had them.

The ones in Japan are unbelievable -- 150 feet tall, red-and-white striped towers.  They often remove them digitally from photos of the new courses over there.

I've heard lots of developers talk bravely of burying them, but Caves Valley is the only course I know of where they've buried the big ones.  Even if you wanted to pay, the power companies just don't want to do it, because if something goes wrong it's much harder to fix.  Caves Valley had the political clout to insist on it.

How can you hide them?  The best you can hope for is to play toward them BETWEEN the towers, so you're not looking right at one.  This is harder to accomplish than it sounds.  We lost one commission because we couldn't figure out how to hide a cell tower completely from all 18 holes!

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()