Yeamans Hall #7 - Why isn't the road used on the Road Hole?

[Ed Oden]

Every "Road" hole template I have seen incorporates some alternative form of hazard to recreate the effect of the road from TOC #17.  Yeamans Hall #7, like most, uses a bunker.  But I noticed while busting Sean Arble's chops on his Yeamans thread how close the access road actually comes to the green, bending just around and the bunker and behind the green...



This made me wonder why the actual road isn't used in the design?  Wouldn't that be cool?  It is an internal road with no meaningful traffic that already comes into play on the first hole.  And it is dirt rather than paved.  So it strikes me as a rare opportunity to incorporate the "real" hazard from the original.  Thoughts?

Ed

PS - Are there other "Road" hole templates that use a road?

[JESII]

Ed,

Do you believe the road was there when the course was built?


Haven't played Yeamans, but I love that part of the world...I'm sure it's great.

[Bart Bradley]

Ed:

Absolutely, it could be cool if well done....

Here is a picture from the website of The Tribute Golf Course in Dallas...it is the only Road Hole other than TOC that I have played that utilized a road/cart path...they also artificially put in a wall for the potential bank shot...



Now, I am not saying I really like this version...but Yeaman's is already great and could be fabulous.

Bart

[Ed Oden]

Jim, I don't know.  However, I am pretty sure that Yeamans was originally conceived and designed as a real estate development, but was derailed by the Depression.  So I think it is possible that the road has been there since the beginning.  I'm hoping Dunlop White, George Bahto, Tom Doak and/or Jim Urbina will spot this thread and chime in since they are likely to know for sure. 

Ed

[Ed Oden]

Bart, I'll bet there are a few others in that vein (perhaps the Tour 18 course) that are marketing exact copies of famous holes.  But I wonder whether any of the template courses (whether MacRaynorBanks or otherwise) that use concepts rather than replicas incorporate a road.

Ed

[RSLivingston_III]

I haven't had the pleasure of seeing this hole in person but from the shot of the green supplied it is the trees that I find most troubling.

[Sean_A]

Ed

Thats a good question.  Perhaps the intent was to never pave the road so it wasn't thought a clever idea to hit of a stoney road as a hazard. 

Ralph

The trees look like they are on top of the green, but I have no memory of trees being an issue anywhere on the course. 

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

The road has indeed been there from the beginning ... it serves several of the most beautiful homes on the property, on the point to the left of #8.  [Well, none of those homes were built before Raynor built the golf course.]

I had never considered the possibility.  But I am guessing the club would not go for it, either because Mr. Milliken would not want his car hit by a stray approach shot to #7, or because the members would be afraid of hitting Mr. Milliken's car.  And since Mr. Milliken donated half the money for the restoration work, we should be nice to him.  [He is one of the great gentlemen, anyway.]

[Jud_T]

 

[Ed Oden]

Ralph, the trees are a non-factor here.  They are all much further away than they appear in the aerial image.  As you can see from this photo, the approach from the fairway is open...



Tom, thanks for the response.  I am sure you are right.  But, in my experience, so few cars are on that road that when one approaches all activity stops until it passes.  So I doubt there is a big risk of car damage; certainly no more so than on #1 or #12.  Anyway, it was just a thought.

Ed

[Ronald Montesano]

Any trains?

[Ed Oden]

Any trains?

Not near the road hole.  But you do cross over train tracks at the entrance to the club.  So you can hear one every now and then.

Ed

[Dunlop_White]

Chiming in late .... the original Olmstead Plan doesn't show any roads around the 7th hole (neither to right of hole nor behind the green). Probably added later for access. From what I understand, Raynor/McDonald versions of the Road Hole at TOC utilized long narrow green-side bunkers behind a long triangular-shaped green to represent a "road-like looking" hazard. (With pot bunker still located up front)

[Ed Oden]

Dunlop, thanks for the response.  I had a feeling you would know the history.

Best wishes,

Ed

[Anthony Gray]

  Ed,

  Very good topic/question. It makes since a "Road Hole" should have a road. A road and rock wall offers a better challenge than a bunker. Those features are just hard to find and appear natural. That is what makes the original so special.

  Anthony

[Mike Demetriou]

I'm playing YH in less than four months, and all of the recent attention lately has me absolutely licking my chops in anticipation. A question though, how far from the tee is the bunker? How do the proporations compare in this regard to the original?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ed,

The difficulty is not in recreating a road, real or faux, but, in creating the wall that's adjacent to it.

That wall serves as a valueable backstop.

[john_stiles]

The interest in the Road hole at TOC, imo, is mostly about the approach and trying to get the ball onto or just short of the green.  The tee shot is worrisome but having to play around the road hole bunker, or going in,  is mostly my worry.  Road hole bunker can easily take two to get out.

The wall is interesting and yes, I have found it necessary to bounce the ball off the wall towards the green.

From the fairway or rough, the wall actually helps me feel safe.  I have seen a few bounce off and away, versus the bothersome one to three feet away.  Shots from the road are interesting but not fearsome.

An interesting imitation should have a bothersome bunker placed around the green imo, with sort of the same angles as the TOC.   Looks like Yeamans has that although I can not remember the slope of the green or ground coming into the green.

The addition of a wall or road would just be extra and not critical in my view.   Seems  Raynor mostly used a green side bunker cut at an angle to the play, for the aspect of the road hazard.

[Jay Flemma]

Actually - and I hope George Bahto chimes in on this - I don't think there is a Road-style hazard behind the green at number 1 of the Knoll club, even though it's called a Road hole.

[JC Urbina]

Dunlop,

I also have chimed in a little late and disagree with your post.

I have a book by the Olmsted Brothers dated 1939 which shows the land plan for Yeamans Hall and the lot layout in that section includes a major road cutting directly behind the 7th green.  The club recently  raised the back plateau just off the green  so that balls would not roll onto the road itself if a ball had rolled through the green and off the back left side. 

I question if you need a road or if all you really need is a hazard to replicate the penalty for rolling through the green.

That was one our discussions at Old Macdonald.  Did the 11th hole " Road Hole" need a road and wall to fulfill the requirements of a penalty for a ball skidding past the fronting bunker and through the green.  We believe that it didn't need either of the two previously mentioned criteria.  Our grass swale would suffice for now.

[George_Bahto]

It seems too many here try to capture what they think is “the” component or a few key components when thinking about Road holes..

Think of how complex this hole is:

* blind tee shot 
* a fairway with OB on the right
* a fairway that is on an L to Rt diagonal to the line of play
* a fairway that you can drive through (into rough) if you are not careful
* fairway narrowing on the approach
* an incredibly well-placed pot bunker guarding the bulk of the green
* a green that is not only shallow, front to back, but dramatically rejects ball to the rear
* a sharp fall-off over the green to a scrufty road beyond
......  and yes the wall

this is a lot of ground to cover on one hole and I DO NOT THINK ANYONE HAS YET TO CAPTURE EVEN HALF OF ALL THAT (YET)

the features beyond the green have to be natural looking  - not easy .... you just can’t have a meaningless road and wall Raynor used the side strip  bunker to emulate the “road” - yes

I think CBM may have gotten more of the Road hole elements at 7-NGLA than he or his two cohorts ever did any place else.-

As Jim said, we discussed these at Old Macdonald and I don’t think anyone was in favor of a road behind the green, let alone some sort of wall standing there - would have been some consideration, I think, if there was an existing meaningful wall there already (actually Tom’s course Renaissance Club in Scotland has existing walls all over the place, so something like that would bear consideration.

[john_stiles]

Don't forget the coal shed and hotel  

[Ed Oden]

Sometimes this site amazes me.  Where else could someone hope for a response from 4 respected individuals like Dunlop, George, Tom and Jim and have them all chime in?

I understand #17 at TOC is very complex and involves many component parts all working together.  But I've never really understood why a long flanking greenside bunker became the preferred method of simulating the road.  To me a bunker is a convenient but not necessarily good choice because it replicates virtually none of the shot options of the original.  Part of the beauty of the road/wall at #17 TOC is that the potential options for recovery are limited only by your imagination.  Why would so many templates limit the recovery to an explosion shot from a bunker?  Aren't there more creative alternatives that allow for some of the choices of the original?

Ed

[Sean_A]

Sometimes this site amazes me.  Where else could someone hope for a response from 4 respected individuals like Dunlop, George, Tom and Jim and have them all chime in?

I understand #17 at TOC is very complex and involves many component parts all working together.  But I've never really understood why a long flanking greenside bunker became the preferred method of simulating the road.  To me a bunker is a convenient but not necessarily good choice because it replicates virtually none of the shot options of the original.  Part of the beauty of the road/wall at #17 TOC is that the potential options for recovery are limited only by your imagination.  Why would so many templates limit the recovery to an explosion shot from a bunker?  Aren't there more creative alternatives that allow for some of the choices of the original?

Ed

Ed

I agree with 100%, but you could ask yourself that question for a ton of holes at Yeamans.  The bunker seems to be the preferred hazard for Raynor greens.   

Ciao

[Dunlop_White]

While Jim and George are more qualified to comment on Raynor's rendition of the Road hole, I am relying on a 1925 plan, supplied by Jim Yonce, that shows plenty of roads at YH, but none near Hole 7 green.

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